Who would you take: Center Field

[JDOldSchool]

Other - Aaron Rowand. Trust me. I can't think of more than three CFs who are more talented than him, and he comes much cheaper than all three of those.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Other - Aaron Rowand. Trust me. I can't think of more than three CFs who are more talented than him, and he comes much cheaper than all three of those.

I'll be a major homer too and say Mark Kotsay should be up there. I do believe he is vastly underrated.

But in all sensibility, I'd easily take Beltran.

[sebastian0622]

Maybe I'm being a homer, but I don't understand the infatuation with Beltran. He's a good player, but I don't see picking him over Andruw Jones. What can he do that Andruw cannot? What is he doing right now that Andruw isn't doing? What has he ever done that Andruw hasn't?

[TonyJ]

Really, Beltran does everything Andruw can do (though Andruw doesn't steal bases anymore), he just does most everything a little better. But you are right, you could flip a coin and take either one and be about as well off either way.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Maybe I'm being a homer, but I don't understand the infatuation with Beltran. He's a good player, but I don't see picking him over Andruw Jones. What can he do that Andruw cannot? What is he doing right now that Andruw isn't doing? What has he ever done that Andruw hasn't?

You're right. I just did a quick numbers comparison on the two and it's very close, with Beltran having the slightly better offensive numbers, but Andrew having the defensive hardware.

That's what I get for pulling stuff off the top of my head without really looking it up. I retract my previous preference for Beltran.

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

Really, Beltran does everything Andruw can do (though Andruw doesn't steal bases anymore), he just does most everything a little better. But you are right, you could flip a coin and take either one and be about as well off either way.

I don't think Beltran hits for power better or plays defense better, and I can't think of two more important categories!

But yeah, I agree that they're pretty close. I'd just give Andruw the edge because I think he may still have his best offensive years ahead of him.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Career slugging percentage:

Jones: .493
Beltran: .490

[marioh]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I don't think Beltran hits for power better or plays defense better, and I can't think of two more important categories!

But yeah, I agree that they're pretty close. I'd just give Andruw the edge because I think he may still have his best offensive years ahead of him.

They both have their best offensive years ahead of them.

Unless you think Beltran has hit his peak.

I agree though, it's a toss up of the two. I only picked Beltran because I'm a Mets fan and Braves hater.

[GForce]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Maybe I'm being a homer, but I don't understand the infatuation with Beltran. He's a good player, but I don't see picking him over Andruw Jones. What can he do that Andruw cannot? What is he doing right now that Andruw isn't doing? What has he ever done that Andruw hasn't?

Their career OPS+:
Beltran 111
Jones 114

I think to act as though picking Jones over Beltran is a clear decision is just as questionable as you feel picking Beltran over Jones is.

What has he ever done that Andruw hasn't?

Stolen 40 bases (twice, which is enhanced by his getting thrown out so rarely)
Hit 40 doubles
Driven in 100 runs 5 times (to Andruw's 3)
Drawn 90 walks
Hit 38 homers (of course, this is minor, since Jones has hit 36 twice)

Peak OPS+:
Beltran 136
Jones 129

Jones OPS has declined the past 3 years, Beltran's has risen. If I had to take one right now, I would take Beltran, despite Andruw being a better defensive centerfielder, obviously. I think it's a fair debate, but it's certainly not a ridiculous stretch to choose Beltran over Jones, not by any means.

GH

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

Career slugging percentage:

Jones: .493
Beltran: .490

ISO favors Jones even more, actually, but that's over their whole career. Beltran seems to just be coming in to his power, while Jones has had his all along. ISO for last season puts Jones at .227 while Beltran's was .266 with KC and .201 with Houston. Right now, they are even in that category. Beltran has always been a better baserunner and hit for a higher average. In addition, Beltran's strike zone judgement has always been good and can now be classified as excellent. They draw about an equal number of walks but Jones strikes out a lot more. Defense used to be all about Jones, but he's slipped in past seasons and they now, once again, rate about even. Again, I'd take either one of them and be fine with it.

[TonyJ]

Originally Posted by GForce

Jones OPS has declined the past 3 years, Beltran's has risen.

Yeah, that's a major point. Beltran's career arc has been pointing upwards in recent seasons, while Jones' value has been declining.

[Urth]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Maybe I'm being a homer, but I don't understand the infatuation with Beltran. He's a good player, but I don't see picking him over Andruw Jones. What can he do that Andruw cannot? What is he doing right now that Andruw isn't doing? What has he ever done that Andruw hasn't?

Stealing a base comes to mind, but there's a wide range of opinion as to how worthwhile that particular skill is. Carlos does have a high success rate for someone who attempts 30 sb/yr ( 42/3 last year - pretty slick no matter how you slice it ). YMMV.

**EDIT: Wow. I'm slow.

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by GForce

I think it's a fair debate, but it's certainly not a ridiculous stretch to choose Beltran over Jones, not by any means.

GH

I agree with that as well. It just generally hits a chord with me because I think Beltran may be the most overrated player this side of Kerry Wood. Not that he's not an outstanding player--because he is--but with the way some folks talk about him you'd think he's hands-down the best CF in the game today by a mile. I don't think that's the case.

[TonyJ]

Well last year that was Jim Edmonds, anyway

[rangerforlife]

Edmonds. I would have taken Griffey's prime years over anyone else's, if that were the criteria.

[GForce]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

I agree with that as well. It just generally hits a chord with me because I think Beltran may be the most overrated player this side of Kerry Wood. Not that he's not an outstanding player--because he is--but with the way some folks talk about him you'd think he's hands-down the best CF in the game today by a mile. I don't think that's the case.

Which, amusingly enough, is how I've long felt about Jones.

I think the thing with Beltran is, he's been improving each year for the past 3, and that trend, combined with his obscene postseason last year, have people giving him an extra bump that, quite frankly, he doesn't need. He may very well be the best CF in the game right now, but it's certainly not by miles or anything of the sort.

GH

[rem]

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Other - Aaron Rowand. Trust me. I can't think of more than three CFs who are more talented than him, and he comes much cheaper than all three of those.

There's no statistical basis for that.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

Career slugging percentage:

Jones: .493
Beltran: .490

Edmonds: .544

[pat]

Juan Pierre!

[boilermaker]

I'm still in bewilderment over Beltran's post-season performance last year. The man was a three way cross between Jim Edmonds, Barry Bonds, and Dave Roberts, in the field, at the plate, and on the bases. I'll take Beltran.