Version 2007 : Community Concerns for Focus

[redsox45]

So, where's OOTP going?

I think only Markus knows that. We may think we know, but ultimately, Markus is the only one who has a clear vision where he wants to take the game.

If that means he has to take a step back, as many have said he did in OOTP2006, then it doesn't necessarily mean that:

-- He's peaked as a developer
-- he's burnt out
-- there's no place left to take OOTP without it going corporate
-- OOTP will never be a quality game "again".

I can understand why people's faith has been shaken, but has it been shaken so much that people are going to write off OOTP2007? OOTP2008?

There's a good reason why they call it developing. That is, there's a lot of time, effort, trial and error that go into a game. Some things work. Some things don't.

In any case, people won't be talking about OOTP2006 the same way once OOTP2007 comes out. It will either be viewed as a stepping stone to a better game, or the start of a decline. OOTP2006 is only a piece of the puzzle, as hard as that may seem to understand.

Will

[lewis31lewis52]

What does free agency have to with the accuracy of the stat engine?

[bababui]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Why is it hypocritical that I don't want them merged? When I want to play an arcade baseball game, I play HH2004. When I want to become immersed in a text based sim with tons of stats, I play OOTP. I very much like being able to bounce between the two rather than having them all in one. I don't want them merged, period. BTW - look up the definition of hypocritical, it's a poor choice of words for what you're saying.



Examples please. Specific examples of where text based sims and arcade games have been merged with success.

Try out the Football Manager series. A good 2-D graphical mode really makes a game come to life and it can be done without any dumbing down at all. In fact, FM is deeper than OOTP AND has baseline graphics. Cant wait for 2-D to come to OOTP.

[darkenigma510]

Originally Posted by dashby

Why do ppl keep suggesting you can't merge a graphically appealing presentation with a solid sports simulation? What I feel is even more hypocritical is ppl suggesting they wouldn't want to merge the 2. It's not only possible but, happening every day in the world of gaming software.

Let's just think about this for one moment. If you had the ability to manage your rosters, depth-charts, stats, etc just like you currently do with the OOTP line BUT, also play these games out in hi-def animation so you can visually see a real-life depiction of your strategy on your 21 inch flat-screen (or, your 50" hi-def plasma TV as far as that goes). Hear the crystal clear dolby7.1 sounds of your game being played through your surround-sound system. I'm not talking about an arcade game where you control your base-runners, outfielders, bat-swing, etc with a joystick. I'm talking about setting your lineup, defense, pitch selection, etc and then letting a graphical/audio engine take over to show you the results. I ask...WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT?

Sounds awesome, but the problem is, once you start focusing on eye candy, its never good enough. Graphics that were "sweet" only a few years ago look crude and ugly compared to XBox360 and PS3 standards. Eventually, too much time and efforts gets spent on improving the eye candy while letting the sim engine slack, because from a business standpoint, it will be the eye candy that sells, not the sim engine.

Of all the "arcade" games made, High Heat was the closest to what we are referring to and even its graphics were ugly for the time and likely cost 3DO some sales (amongst all their other problems).

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by dashby

Actually, that is exactly the word I wanted to use. A hypocrite is, basically, a pretender. Also indicates someone who feigns some publicly approved attitude. Since these forums are inundated with self-proclaimed text-simmers who ridicule console gamers, yet, probably spend more time engaged in Quake, Doom, Call to Duty, or WOW then OOTP I believe it's a well chosen label.

So basically everyone who's saying they like stats and not graphics is a pretender? I'd say you have a pretty low opinion of a lot of the posters here making a statement like yours. You know for a fact these people play Quake and Doom, etc? And even if they did play those games, that doesn't mean a thing. This is baseball, not some fantasy war game. There's nothing wrong with liking graphics in one game and not liking them in another. NTW - when you get a chance please link me to some of those posts where console gamers are being ridiculed.

Originally Posted by dashby

High Heat Baseball was an amazing "arcade" game that digested and produced statistical MLB numbers much more accurately than the latest OOTP does. I'm not going to say for one minute it was as deep and diverse statistically as OOTP but, the stats it produced were more accurate over the course of a season than those in OOTP. I'm not going to offer logs of data to prove my opinion because it's not that important to me what you believe (no offense but, I see too many folks spending too many hours trying to get fodder to support their arguments). Unfortunately, the HH line met its demise long before we could see its true potential.

So you still can't give me an example of a text based sim and an arcade game that were merged succesfully, as you claim happens all the time today. HH was never merged with a text based sim. You won't offer logs of data, because as Elendil said, HH was terrible for stats. And that is a fact.

At the end of the day, OOTP is text based, and I for one hope it stays that way. Arcade style baseball games are available. If we start merging text based and arcade, then pretty soon all we have is arcade. Choice is good, turning OOTP into a graphical arcade game takes away choice, not adds to it.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by bababui

Try out the Football Manager series. A good 2-D graphical mode really makes a game come to life and it can be done without any dumbing down at all. In fact, FM is deeper than OOTP AND has baseline graphics. Cant wait for 2-D to come to OOTP.

Perhaps you overlooked this part of my reply -

I very much like being able to bounce between the two rather than having them all in one.

I have no interest in the sport of soccer. I enjoy hockey very much and purchased the latest EHM. I don't use the 2d in it because it doesn't interest me. I'm interested in text based sims with a solid stat producing AI. If I want graphics in my hockey game, I'll play EA's NHL game, the same as I'll play HH when I want graphics in my baseball game.

[Go Middies]

I dare say that those who use the EHM 2D engine are those who are playing it for arcade value and not for the realistic value but that's just IMHO.

I agree with the early poster who said that graphics and text take away from the other. If OOTP became a lesser version of HH2004 or so, quite a few of the hardcore crowd would jet faster than Speedy Gonzalez. Why does everything have to get dumbed down for a small fraction of people while people with intelligence have to be left continually wanting?

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Go Middies

I dare say that those who use the EHM 2D engine are those who are playing it for arcade value and not for the realistic value but that's just IMHO.

I agree with the early poster who said that graphics and text take away from the other. If OOTP became a lesser version of HH2004 or so, quite a few of the hardcore crowd would jet faster than Speedy Gonzalez. Why does everything have to get dumbed down for a small fraction of people while people with intelligence have to be left continually wanting?

Why do you have to choose one extreem or the other? A 2-D graphical engine that plays out the game is in no way arcade. There is nothing in the graphics that wasnt already in the game as the game is simmed at the start and resimmed after each change of players or strategy.

There is no dumbing down at all.

Even people with intelligence might enjoy this.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

Animations, graphics, sound...all these things are not OOTP

In your opinion.

I can see circumstances where such a thing could enhance the OOTP experience for many of the gamers. Take, for example, an audio play by play system.

If Markus put a basic system in place where you could get an optional download to give you audio play by play of a game while you sim it, what's the harm? Perhaps someone could find a voice archive of Vin Scully or Ernie Harwell or Harry Calas and suddenly you'd have a great baseball announcer calling your sim games. You really think OOTP fans wouldn't like something like this?

I think it's dangerous to paint with a wide brush and say "X, Y and Z aren't OOTP." I can see the animations argument and would probably support it but I don't think sound is necessarily out of the question.

[Go Middies]

OOTP hardcore guys would love a Vin Scully or Harry Caray but not if it's at the expense of the gameplay, stat accuracy or AI improvements. That's the one thing that I think all of us do have in common: we're all craving more depth and accuracy to the game. But I side with those that don't want a graphic interface along with the sim.

What I meant by the 'dumbed down' aspect is the earlier post (15). The hardcore folk should have one bastion of a game where things are made about as complex as they can be without having to pander to those that want a PS3 graphic set so they can pound out 150 HR in a year.

[tysok]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

In your opinion.

I can see circumstances where such a thing could enhance the OOTP experience for many of the gamers. Take, for example, an audio play by play system.

If Markus put a basic system in place where you could get an optional download to give you audio play by play of a game while you sim it, what's the harm? Perhaps someone could find a voice archive of Vin Scully or Ernie Harwell or Harry Calas and suddenly you'd have a great baseball announcer calling your sim games. You really think OOTP fans wouldn't like something like this?

An audio pbp is a pain, I think it was High Heat that had pbp by a real announcer, and it sucked bad. It was fun for about three games, then it was a joke. Tone differs, it sounds chopped... you think pbp in 2006 was bad an audio pbp would really be bad.

Take it piece meal and it could really be cool. On a Home run have the sound kick in and play a home run call from an audio file, then you find a voice archive of those guys and get some famous home run calls... that wouldn't be bad. Simple audio of fan noise and strike and out calls like there was in OOTP5 wouldn't be bad... of course they need to make sense.

A 2D engine wouldn't be all that bad, but no further than that. There's plenty of work to do before it could get there anyhow, although it would be fun to see the popfly behind the catcher and watch the dot for the right fielder run in and catch it.

[toxicavenger74]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

In your opinion.

I can see circumstances where such a thing could enhance the OOTP experience for many of the gamers. Take, for example, an audio play by play system.

If Markus put a basic system in place where you could get an optional download to give you audio play by play of a game while you sim it, what's the harm? Perhaps someone could find a voice archive of Vin Scully or Ernie Harwell or Harry Calas and suddenly you'd have a great baseball announcer calling your sim games. You really think OOTP fans wouldn't like something like this?

I think it's dangerous to paint with a wide brush and say "X, Y and Z aren't OOTP." I can see the animations argument and would probably support it but I don't think sound is necessarily out of the question.

The Madden line has announcers and for years ,if not still, it was considered one of the most annoying parts of the game in my opinion. Just as the same as it would be with OOTP if there was an announcer. Sure the first month of the season it would be novel but eventually it would become mundane. Why even the text announcing becomes boring pretty quickly to the point where all that is needed are the results. So, I my answer would be "No" fans wouldn't want announcing and yes that's my opinion (what else could it be).

I would also disagree that it is not dangerous to say these things are not OOTP because well ..they aren't. I have yet to see the combination or anything close of 2K or EA Sports style of graphics and game play with deep text and customization platform that OOTP brings to the table. It hasn't happened and I doubt that it will anytime soon. If the arguement is that it will happen then show me proof. Why hasn't 2k put out a game with OOTP style accuracy? They surely have more resources.

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger74

The simpleness will allow for more marketability to those with limited time or limited desire to get totally immersed in GMing.

Why?

Who cares if it's more or less marketable? Markus could make it more marketable by making it a RTS style game. He could make it more marketable by removing VORP and other newfangled statistical measures (and for the record I like VORP but some old timers moan). He's making the game he wants to make. Maybe it's what you want and maybe it's not.

Games (or anything really) that promise to be all things to all people often are junk. They become muddled projects that fail to satisfy anyone. If I want the hard core 3D engine there are games for me out there to give me that. I played High Heat. It was junk for stats and other things but looked beautiful. I watched barry Bonds hit 89 HR's one season and so I traded a middle reliever for him! Ridiculous right? Sure, I knew it but I didn't care because it was fun to look at.

I don't play OOTP for that but for far better stats, trades, and baseball management devices. Don't want to get into GMing? You may not have the right game.

[mrbill]

People seem to be dodging the real argument to both sides here. It's immaterial whether or not 2D graphics and animations "were OOTP" or "would make OOTP feel different" or whatnot. OOTP is what OOTP is. I'm sure solid 2D animations wouldn't really take away from OOTP the text-based sim, whether or not you could turn them down or off. If all of a sudden tomorrow, OOTP was animated well, I doubt people would really ditch it.

It's the fact that there's limited developer time and an immense list of features to implement or improve.

Do you want the AI to suck less, do you want contract extension logic improved, do you want other "core" baseball simulation aspects improved.... or, do you want better graphics, sound and animation?

It's a pretty simple formula (Markus' time in a year) / (Time per feature) = features implemented. That number isn't going to change unless more developers are added.

Pick what you want, and that's that. I'd rather see the core improved (EA Baseball 2006 is arcade baseball for me), because OOTP as a statistically accurate baseball simulation is in a league of its own. Trying to compete in any way on the graphics level is just going out of market and any time spent improving that leaves the door open for competitors to out-do OOTP on the actual simulation aspects. If that's the way they want to go, thats fine, but when you are the best at something, I'd put effort into staying the best.

[dashby]

Originally Posted by BruceM

So basically everyone who's saying they like stats and not graphics is a pretender? I'd say you have a pretty low opinion of a lot of the posters here making a statement like yours. You know for a fact these people play Quake and Doom, etc? And even if they did play those games, that doesn't mean a thing. This is baseball, not some fantasy war game. There's nothing wrong with liking graphics in one game and not liking them in another. NTW - when you get a chance please link me to some of those posts where console gamers are being ridiculed.
Way too much to answer but, basically, you don't appear to see the forest for the trees. Instead of trying to dissect each sentence (and you really didn't do a very good job of that) you should read to interpret a message.


So you still can't give me an example of a text based sim and an arcade game that were merged succesfully, as you claim happens all the time today. HH was never merged with a text based sim. You won't offer logs of data, because as Elendil said, HH was terrible for stats. Just because Elendil said it don't mean it's so. Who the heck is Elendil anyway?And that is a fact.

At the end of the day, OOTP is text based, and I for one hope it stays that way. Arcade style baseball games are available. If we start merging text based and arcade, then pretty soon all we have is arcade. Choice is good, turning OOTP into a graphical arcade game takes away choice, not adds to it.

Arcade..schmarcade. What does arcade mean to you? A game that you play on a console? A game that you play on a PC that has graphics? My point that I will reiterate one last time: If you could have a statistically accurate game that also included graphics and audio would you pass that up for a statistically accurate game that gives feedback through text. I think most ppl would rather see Albert Pujols hit a 450 foot walk off home on their screen than read about it....all statistical simulation being equal, of course.

Just check out this thread if you don't want to believe me. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=136632

[ifspuds]

Originally Posted by dashby

Arcade..schmarcade. What does arcade mean to you? A game that you play on a console? A game that you play on a PC that has graphics? My point that I will reiterate one last time: If you could have a statistically accurate game that also included graphics and audio would you pass that up for a statistically accurate game that gives feedback through text. I think most ppl would rather see Albert Pujols hit a 450 foot walk off home on their screen than read about it....all statistical simulation being equal, of course.

Just check out this thread if you don't want to believe me. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=136632

But I think the point is that there are far too many things that need to be fixed or fully implemented before adding the complexity of graphics into the mix -- 2D, 3D or otherwise. I really don't care one way or the other about the idea of graphics in the game, but..

I'd rather first have a game that can handle in-game expansion, creation and deletion of subleagues, quick and easy implementation of historical era settings and stats, multiple complexity levels for custom and historical league creation so it doesn't have to take two weeks of tweaking to get things the way I want them... and that's all without even mentioning the continual improvements to the AI.

If we had all those things, then I'd fully support adding graphics engines. If adding the 2D display from other SI games was easy, I suspect we'd have it in some form already. I'm hoping it makes an entry into v2008, but I'm more interested in seeing v2007 tighten up a lot of the loose ends of v2006 first.

[endgame]

I think two or three of you actually get the point. A limited number of beta-testers (let's say an arbitrary active 30-40) are now at work on the game, to some degree what it contains, and whether what it contains works and works as intended. There is little doubt in my mind that Markus has applied, through his own creation or through someone in a leadership role, a detailed categorization of areas to explore for integrity. If one is to assume all areas will be treated with equal vigor and dissection, one should as well assume areas received both more and less attention than they deserved, breeding the cries of the aftermath. Some areas are in dire need of more attention than others, if but based solely on the voices of the community beyond those closest to its scrutiny. Unless we subscribe to the idea that most of the people really interested in the game and its essential aspects are involved in testing, so the need to contribute or be concerned becomes irrelevant. Your disenchantments, should they arise after the game's release, should then be justly treated with the same irrelevance and indifference.

In an earlier post, Sweed responded to someone that "we should wait to see what the next version looks like before writing off the game." I am a firm believer that we have historically been too complacent and we "wait and see," or rather "wait and then complain" rather than take an active and vocal role during the evaluation's process. To allow the focus of the game, potentially its emphasis and evaluation, to defer to the number of genuinely community-conscious, caring, and participating beta-testers (which I would argue is far less than the arbitrary 30-40) is harnessing an undue burden on the zealous few and magnifies, however inadvertantly, their Game-View to unintended influence.

In another thread someone said they would be willing to pay the usual top dollar for v2007 if it were nothing more than v2006 where everything worked as it should, or was intended to, and the basic, simple rules of baseball were applied with precision (or to that effect). I referenced my response in my original post. While plans, I know, are in place to resurrect many - if not all - of the features left behind in 6.5, my hope remains that the game - first and foremost - returns to the "business of baseball" and one governed by its rules with regard to transactions, finances, and statistical integrity. I think v2006 made great strides in its flexibility with the second, enhanced our field of collection drastically with the third, and still has a lot of work to do with the first. How the AI handles its evaluations, designations and assignments of roles, promotes and demotes, utilizes its roster in lineups, secondary rosters, farm systems, development plans, ad infinitum still remains a critical influence on the believability of the gaming experience: real, imagined, fictional, or historical. While still, IMHO, the pinnacle of baseball simulation, OOTP needs to stay trained on the idea that a baseball game must, primarily, provide an accurate reflection of how baseball works without undue tolerance or rationalization of its shortcomings. Further, and associated, are those same rules applied to the field of play and its adherence to rules and expectations. Beyond those things, the colorful world of decorating our digital heroes becomes not only an easier endeavour, but one with more promise and possibility.

Now that I've once again, to no doubt your usual dismay, editorialized, let me rephrase my original post: What is it you want to make sure these guys look at and look at hard before this game nears release? Don't get left wondering why something wasn't focused on when the answer may well be you never shouted loud enough, or enough times, that it mattered. It's not a suggestion thread, it's a Forget-Me-Not thread. Speak up about what's essential to you and don't get caught up in useless argumentative exchanges. I suppose I'm a fool, but I still like to think all of us still wear the same uniform. Let's try to play on the same field: making sure the front office is focused on the team.

[Go Middies]

It's all about the AI and its interpretation of what's on its roster, what it needs, what it wants and how it applies all of those. It shouldn't work like Madden's does: Madden's will draft QBs in the first round for the same team for years and then drop each one sequentially just because it ran out of roster room. The AI is, and always will be, the most important part of this game.

I would think that number 2 on this list is the actual user experience. Make it more like EHM 05. Have players that just don't like their team and make them want out, have an assistant GM post that helps out GMs in evaluating what their roster holds (but only if the AI can improve), make game play enjoyable and perhaps let the decisions one makes about fielders and such stay attached when you auto play a batter instead of going back to default (which is how I understand it works now).

Basically, I think it all boils down to: give us the gameplay of 6.5 with the user experience of EHM05 and the stats depth that is synonymous with the OOTP franchise.

[Bluenoser]

Way too much to answer but, basically, you don't appear to see the forest for the trees. Instead of trying to dissect each sentence (and you really didn't do a very good job of that) you should read to interpret a message.

I can see the forrest for the trees. I'm not dissecting each sentence, I'm dissecting your claim that it's hypocritical to play games like doom which have graphics, and then not want them in OOTP. You are the one who can't see the forrest for the trees because you can't seem to comprehend the fact that a lot of people don't want graphics in OOTP. Because they like them in other games and not OOTP doesn't make them hypocritical.

Just because Elendil said it don't mean it's so. Who the heck is Elendil anyway?

And who the heck are you? Or who the heck am I or anyone else for that matter. Elendil said it and I agreed because it's true.

Originally Posted by dashby

My point that I will reiterate one last time: If you could ave a statistically accurate game that also included graphics and audio would you pass that up for a statistically accurate game that gives feedback through text.

Yes, I would pass that up. As I and others have said, I don't want graphics in OOTP. I like the text based sim as is very much. Is it difficult for you to comprehend that not everyone likes what you like?

Originally Posted by dashby

I think most ppl would rather see Albert Pujols hit a 450 foot walk off home on their screen than read about it....all statistical simulation being equal, of course.

Just check out this thread if you don't want to believe me. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=136632

I've checked that thread, and many others, and it's obvious that there a lot more people interested in statistical accuracy than having graphics. There have been countless polls on these forums over the years regarding how many people play out ther games and how many sim. The amount who play the games out are in the minority. So your claim that most people would rather see Pujols hit a HR than read about it is incorrect.

Of course it's a well known fact that online polls are extremely inaccurate and unreliable, so we'll never really know how many people actually play out their games and how many just sim.

OOTP has been a text based sim from the beginning and has built a huge fan base on that. It obviously didn't turn people away by not having graphics. People migrated to this game because they like the text based stats, not because they like graphics.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by endgame

I am a firm believer that we have historically been too complacent and we "wait and see," or rather "wait and then complain" rather than take an active and vocal role during the evaluation's process. To allow the focus of the game, potentially its emphasis and evaluation, to defer to the number of genuinely community-conscious, caring, and participating beta-testers (which I would argue is far less than the arbitrary 30-40) is harnessing an undue burden on the zealous few and magnifies, however inadvertantly, their Game-View to unintended influence.

While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, it is very difficult to do anything other than take the "wait & see" approach.

1. If the developer doesn't release any information on what's in the game, it's difficult to evaluate.

2. Unless you're a beta tester, you don't know what's there to evaluate. (Ties in with #1)

3. Making suggestions on the suggestion forum, the multitude of posts made here and in the bug forum about inaccuracies are all good, but again we need feedback from the developer. Many times I've been frustrated when legitimate concerns are raised and the developer gives no response. We need to know in order to evaluate. A simple "Yes, that's being looked at for the next version", or no, "that's not being looked at" would suffice.

As it stands now, all I can do is wait and see and then evaluate.