Your opinions please...

[84CubsFan]

I want to preface this post by saying that what I've written below could create some negativity (if people care -- it probably will just go unnoticed, which is fine by me). That is not my intention at all -- I'm just trying to point out what I see as the major issue of the game.

I largely agree with Calvert's review of the OOTP2006; I'm not sure I agree with his review of the merger. I think that SI is a good company that tries to do right by its customers. I'm personally not ecstatic about the fact that I shelled out cash for a game that, no matter how you slice it, just doesn't play well. And I'm reasonably certain that you guys at SI knew that there were problems with the release that you would likely never be able to fix. But that's the way free markets work -- you had to generate some revenue so you released the game as it was, you lost some future customers (but not necessarily me).

But about the game, I think that the problem actually isn't just a problem of focus (and OOTP *must* keep its fictional capabilities, for reasons that I've posted elsewhere). I do agree that the game at least has to model the rules of MLB baseball correctly. But with time I'm confident that this will happen for OOTP. The official rules of modern baseball -- all of its contract rules and draft rules, etc. -- will eventually work correctly in the game. All of the online league bugs will eventually die out. Maybe we'll even see expansion draft capability and pre-1900 importing. This is all only a matter of time, and I think the effort is there. What I see as the main problem with OOTP2006's attempt to take v.6 to "the next level" is that "the next level" meant trying to incorporate more of the proper "feel" of baseball. The programmer and design staff simply don't know enough about the "feel" to make that happen in a way that is satifying to those who do.

PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG: I'm not trying to be elitist and definitely not hoorah-America or anything ridiculous like that. I'm quite sure that Markus Heinsohn is just as big a fan of baseball as I am, probably bigger. Nor am I questioning the professional integrity of either Markus or Marc Duffy. Absolutely, 100% not. I think you guys really want to do well by your customers and create the best baseball game out there. I'm convinced of it. But my assessment -- take it for what you will -- is that with OOTP2006 you came up against the limits of your knowledge of the "feel" of baseball.

And the "feel" is *everything*. Someone who knows the "feel" of the game can create a decent AI, which OOTP severely lacks. It is why the Football Manager series is so beloved: FM and its AI captures what someone who has loved soccer/football all their lives knows to be the "feel" of the game better than any other computer sim out there. Hands down. And I would imagine that the reason why is that your programmers and design team for Football Manager have been watching and loving football since they were small children, and that this lifelong knowledge of the "feel" of the game allows them to create a computer program that simulates it.

AGAIN, PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG: I'm not saying that Markus knows nothing about baseball -- in fact, he knows a ton, certainly more than I do in many respects. And he knows enough about the "feel" for it to be present in v.6. But something got lost in the translation to OOTP 2007.

I think that because there's so much goodwill behind the game, it's fixable. Everyone who knows OOTP can see the blood, sweat, and tears of love that Markus has put into the game. But getting back the "feel" is going to require some smart hiring. It's Markus' game and SI/Markus' program. Ultimately we have to see baseball through Markus/SI eyes. But somehow, some way, you're going to have to enlist some of the longtime baseball lovers associated with your company to help with the major design features. How I would do it?

1) Choose first of all guys or girls with whom you can communicate really easily.

2) Choose fewer rather than more people. I would say three. Having a team of beta bug busters is one thing. But you need a design team, and that means a core of good thinkers, but not so many voices that decisions can't be made.

3) Choose people who know the "feel" -- who have a George Brett rookie card on their desk that they got not in a collector's shop, but in a bubble gum pack they bought for 10 cents when they were 9 years old.

[Twelvefield]

Maybe our blogger "calls it as he sees it", but I can't trust a critic who bashes a product before it's even been released, let alone developed, as in his remarks concerning OOTPB 2007.

From my point of view, he's feeling ripped-off concerning OOTPB 2006, and he's letting emotion get in the way of reason. I certainly can empathize with the emotion, but I don't agree with all of his content -- I am also one of those chopped-liver solo players.

I would consider his brief article an opinion, rather than a review.

And that's old Twelvefield calling it as he sees it.

[Big Koolaid]

Personally, I can't disagree with the blog much. I haven't been able to even play the game due to a problem that was never answered in Tech Support and I wasn't able to play this version like I had played each of the last 4 (mostly historical simming). I've gone as far as to remove it from my system now, no point in filling up my hard drive with something that isn't going to/can't be used.

For me, it feels as if OOTP died and I had to move onto a totally new game that really couldn't do what the game I liked did, a game that no one could really tell you much about, so you take a stab at it and give it a shot. And after trying like mad to like the game, you realize you just don't and wish you had your 30 bucks back because you'd really enjoy a pizza right now and that money would come in handy.

I've lost my faith in a product that I once eagerly told everyone they had to try and it's not because of the interface or the historical problems. It's because all the fun was sucked out of the game.

[Tom the Fish]

Honestly, I've given up on the game since it crashes everytime I try to replace an injured pitcher.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=131472

Sorry, but it's the truth.

Tom

[Elendil]

Hockey fans consider EHM to be the greatest hockey management sim ever. They are dedicated to it even though it has virtually no customizability as far as fictional leagues go. What it does well is to replicate the rules and strategy of the NHL. The lesson for OOTP is that replicating the rules and strategy of the MLB is the most important thing in a baseball management sim. That's where 2007 needs to focus.

[Nutlaw]

"the lack of information about contract and free agent offers, the AI doing weird things unless you shut it down for every team and every level, the lack of development information..."

These are actually three of my biggest irks when playing the game in a single player league right now. The game isn't polished yet. It's difficult to tell what the AI is trying to do sometimes, and there isn't enough feedback on what is going on with players in matters like free agent offers and development information, so I never really know what they are doing either. (I just started up a league and am scared by the fact that every player I've offered a contract to so far has sent me two emails the next day: one saying that they will take the time to consider other offers followed immediately by a second saying that they will sign the contract. Will the on-line league I play in be essentially forced to throw in all of our final bids on the first day of free agency if we convert?)

Some of the new features are neat in theory, but are unwieldy (scouting, especially with limited access to averaged ratings) or detract from the game in practice (draft compensation picks, since the choice of arbitration was taken out and every poor FA pickup costs an expensive third round pick).

The game was released before it was finished, tech support only resulted in anything being fixed because volunteers stepped in, and at this point we will apparently need to throw down more money before getting some of the design flaws (we'll not call most of them bugs at this point) fixed.

I like the new game. I'm continually speaking out in front of my online league in favor of converting because I do like some of the new features. However, the experience, as a whole, has been disappointing.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Elendil

Hockey fans consider EHM to be the greatest hockey management sim ever. They are dedicated to it even though it has virtually no customizability as far as fictional leagues go. What it does well is to replicate the rules and strategy of the NHL. The lesson for OOTP is that replicating the rules and strategy of the MLB is the most important thing in a baseball management sim. That's where 2007 needs to focus.

There's a flip side to that: it's EHM's lack of customizability which keeps me from trying it out. I personally simply HATE being locked into one league setup and alignment; it's the reason I passed on FOF, and on FM too for that matter (in addition to a lack of knowledge of that particular sport).

While I wouldn't expect complete customizability in terms of league setup, I want at least some. I do not want to be locked into only being able to play out the current incarnation of a league; I want to be able to indulge my imagination and try out at least a few other ideas.

So, to boil it down, if EHM had more flexibility it might very well gain MORE sales from folks such as myself. And I'm hardly the only person who has a strong distaste for strictly limited league flexibility.

[cmdroverbite]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

I don't see this, as I am not looking. All I see is a new market getting underserved.

I have confidence that Mac-specific issues will be worked out. SI's products, especially after the Championship Manager-to-Football Manager transition happened a few years back, have always run extremely smoothly on the Mac platform. It would be great to see a 7.0.3.1 patch for Mac users addressing the online league export problems, and if these problems are common, I would definitely advise any Mac users to NOT purchase OOTP unless online play is not a priority. But overall, I have to say that SI, as a company, is quite serious and pro-active about dealing with a relatively tiny slice of their overall market share.

I don't buy that a "world focus" for 2006 matters at all. It's not big, it did not take that much time to develop, and much was borrowed from FM.

I agree. I thought that the degree to which this annoyed people was wildly out of line with its importance to the game. The ability to concurrently run MLB, US independent leagues, the Japanese league, and the Mexican league is a big plus to the game's realism. Likewise, the ability to bird-dog international free agents in places like the DR, Venezuela, etc. is not only valuable but a necessary addition to any program that hopes to be the ultimate MLB simulator. The fact that these same features also allow the user to set up a league or scout for players in East Timor or Somalia is a boon to people who enjoy creating "fantasy" scenarios and of no consequence to those who don't. From the howls of complaint these features have engendered, you'd think that Markus, under strict orders from the SI Death Star, was commanded to spend weeks of coding time optimizing league play in Chad at the expense of other features.

However, some things in this "world focus" category are batty. Example: scouting stinks. It does not resemble international scouting for baseball. The AI does not use it. It is hard to manage and is a repetitive tedious chore.

I would describe it as an incomplete implementation of a fundamentally good idea. Personally, I enjoy it when my scouts turn up a promising youngster in Mexico or what have you, and I don't find managing international scouts to be anything close to the most tedious chore in the game. YMMV.

[English_Ray]

Well, fair enough if thats his opinion on the game (and I genuinely feel sorry for everybody who is having bad problems with it) but its not a review is it?

Personally, I've had no problems with the game at all. Maybe I've just been lucky.

I play mainly fictional, and its brilliant for that.

I play some historical, and for me it does pretty much everything I want.

I play in an online league, and everything is going smoothly (well, except for my Seattle Rainiers sucking, but thats another story...).

I think that the merger between SI and OOTP left a lot of people with massive expectations. Personally, having played FM/CM for years (very, very literally!), I'm confident that eventually all those expectations will be met. I think that where the disappointment will come is in the time that it will take to do so.

Unfortunately, it seems that, to some, certain areas on the game have been focused on more than others. If its the area you use most that got that attention, then great. If not, then you're mad, and you have that right - particularly if you percieve that 6.5 did the job better. And there are, without question, things that are missing from 6.5 that should be there in 2006.

I think, and I know this is said a lot on these forums, that the fact that the game is a complete rewrite must be taken into consideration. But, even without that, it is my personal opinion that this is the best game out there. And it will be better next year. Of that I am absolutely certain. I know SI, and I trust them, and I firmly believe that the reviewer will be eating his words come (circa) opening day 2007. I could be wrong. But I have faith...

[rasnell]

I agree with the comments about the "feel" of the game, the "fun" factor and the design elements.

The game has branched in some many complex directions that I turn off most of the options. I just don't find anything but work and time-consuming, carpal-tunnel-producing clicks to the scouting.

Trades are a royal pain when you have to keep listing the same players on your team that you want to offer as you go through the menus of every other team in the league to see what you can come up with.

Menus that don't pin to the previous view are the biggest aggravation with the interface.

I have no interest in baseball imitating the World Soccer League and never use those features.

I was turned off so much by the departure from real minor leagues with real players that I bought three other text sim games, still searching for the answer. Came close to finding it in sheer ease, in-game views, etc. with one of your other independent developer/competitors.

As I've noted many times, failure to unclutter, simplify and make the in-game view very visually attractive and user friendly are the greatest overall failure of this release and where the real demise of fun and feel have occurred.

My hope is that SI/Markus will avoid trying to come up with all kinds of new bells and whistles and jazzy new features and will focus very strongly on the ability to play out a game.

It is very poor when you cannot customize your stat views, your screen views, or easily position your own stadium photos, etc. The horrible oversight (until 1.3) of even being able to see the base runner ratings and the catcher arm should never even occurred prior to release. Just no excuse.

The tiny screen to try to view more than a dozen lines of PBP text -- it never fits in the window -- just awful, never corrected.

All of the joy got sucked out of the game when solo play and day-by-day in-game view were made to be a cluttered, incomplete, launch.

However, the pluses are the amazing array of stats; the attempts to tackle the complexities of free agency, waivers, Rule 5, etc.; the dramatically enhanced text for play by play.

The engine configuration is broken and there is no way to customize our own results for wild pitches, and hit by pitches -- never did get fixed. Still getting ridiculous results that aren't even close to historical results -- almost to the point that it appears the game must be importing data from the wrong field -- even in the SI-created fictional databases.

There are bugs that remain and I don't even bother reporting any more because no one official has looked at the Dream Team Forum in weeks.

1.03 is where I finally began playing my real leagues. All previous versions were certainly bug testing. It was a mess.

The game is wonderful for the dramatic speed of simming. It works well if you have no intention of playing out your games or of really looking closely at the horrendous AI management.

The choices of leadoff and cleanup hitters remain flawed.

Fixing in-game and AI are far more important than any more features.

[Dargone]

I don't play in an online league, so forgive the ignorance. What problems with contracts and free agents is the author refering to?

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Dargone

I don't play in an online league, so forgive the ignorance. What problems with contracts and free agents is the author refering to?

My assumption was that he was highlighting the fact that the user is not provided with a list of the free agent contract offers that he has on the table as is provided in the previous version during the off-season. The previous verison also provided a list of which teams had made offers to which players.

[bp_]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

One other thing. He's right about "If you do not believe my assessment, simply visit the technical report forum and comb through post after post of unresolved issues." I have not seen too many authoritative responses over there recently, and it does not look good, IMO, even if another patch is not forthcoming. Some analysis, some attempts at troubleshooting would be appreciated by the folks over there, I am sure.

I also find it annoying that nothing is being logged anymore but I also understand that the beta team is unpaid so what can we really expect.

[D Love]

Just to reiterate what has been said, my general impression of OOTP2006 is that SI simply tried to do too much. The state of the game as released should be an embarrassment to the company. And although I like it now, it does seem that it has lots of features that are 80% there rather than few features that are all 98% there.

Personally, I would think that the smartest thing to do for 2007 would be to focus on a handful of features and get them all but airtight. Either maintain or shelve the other features that aren't working quite right.

Then in 2008, you turn to those features.

Or, you bail on the Opening Day release idea (since forcing a release date bombed last time) and target All-Star Week or something and take advantage of the entire 9 months you have until then.

[D Love]

Just thinking out loud... but a public beta next time might not be a bad idea... I mean, having a global network of testers would be ideal and would also avoid the disaster of selling a beta version to people.

[Cowboys3356]

Of all the versions that have been created this one has been has been received the most "poorly". Now that doesn't mean no one likes it or it stinks, etc, etc. It just means that it has been received the worst and there MUST be a reason for it.

Also I think the merger is a failure in terms of this game is being turned into another "Soccer Manger European Game thing" and that is not good in my opinion but I am only one customer.

I plan on sticking with 6.51 for now. Hopefully version 7 will get back to its 6.51 roots and go from there.

[84CubsFan]

Originally Posted by D Love

Just thinking out loud... but a public beta next time might not be a bad idea... I mean, having a global network of testers would be ideal and would also avoid the disaster of selling a beta version to people.

See, I actually think this would be more harmful than helpful. A public release beta would be great if the only problem were bugs. But the problems are design flaws, so a public beta would just invite wayyyyy too many cooks into the kitchen.

OOTP2007 needs a small, <10 person design team that includes at least 3-5 people who have had baseball in their blood since they were kids. This team needs to be in on every design decision for the game, and they need to focus on 3 things:

1) keeping the fictional and historical elements of the game;

2) modelling MLB rules baseball correctly;

3) building an AI that can successfully manage a team with all of bells and whistles available in the game; if the AI can't handle a feature, don't have it in the game.

[Dargone]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

My assumption was that he was highlighting the fact that the user is not provided with a list of the free agent contract offers that he has on the table as is provided in the previous version during the off-season. The previous verison also provided a list of which teams had made offers to which players.

Ahhh, makes sense. Thanks...

[RBLwebguy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There's a flip side to that: it's EHM's lack of customizability which keeps me from trying it out. I personally simply HATE being locked into one league setup and alignment; it's the reason I passed on FOF, and on FM too for that matter (in addition to a lack of knowledge of that particular sport).

While I wouldn't expect complete customizability in terms of league setup, I want at least some. I do not want to be locked into only being able to play out the current incarnation of a league; I want to be able to indulge my imagination and try out at least a few other ideas.

So, to boil it down, if EHM had more flexibility it might very well gain MORE sales from folks such as myself. And I'm hardly the only person who has a strong distaste for strictly limited league flexibility.

Agreed, the lack of flexibility has kind of turned me off from buying it.

[RANGER11JP]

I have to say that I like the game, but I don't like playing it!

Let me explain. I am SO tired to typing and checking and clicking and squinting. I have no desire to scout players in countries that have no sanitation and harbor terrorists. Nor do I care to have players show up with names like Ali-Bombar Kaboomfatwar. Tom Collins, Jack Daniels or Johhny Walker would suit me just fine. And please allow them and others the dignity to not be signed and released 100 times a season. I have individual players who have more transactions than whole leagues did in 6.5. Speaking of 6.5, a neat little thing that came about was a player coming back from retirement at random. (Not retireing from retirement as in 2006!). It was unexpected and FUN. I think that's the key here. I have to do so much stuff to get the game the way I want it that it's not fun, but WORK. In 1901, I have to decide on every team everywhere from now until 2525 or at least every league. Fun and flexibility and an understanding of how things work. I still have no clue of how MLE's and P??'s effect what happens. Could you tell me how to import players I want without having to look each one's Lahman code up, and how the options will matter. I am really frustrated by all of this and more, because I like the game, but I can't get it to play my way, which was a big selling point for it. It's not the money. I'd pay double if the game could do all the things it was suposed to do. FUN. FUN. FUN.

Markus and Marc, please understand that I mean all of this to be somewhat tounge-in-cheek, but these and other items do need to be addressed. As for the blog, I don't think it gave a true picture of what was good or what needed improvement..

Thank you for your kind attention.