The 255 bug bites again! - Page 2

MorseMoose · 06-01-2006, 08:37 PM

I'd like to see the stats that can go past 255.

Le Grande Orange · 06-01-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I do know that the next step up from 255 is 65536, which is using a new datatype to store the information...

Why can't the next step up be 4,096 which is 16 cubed? In a base-16 system, 16 squared is 256, and 16 cubed is 4096, and 16 to the power of four is 65,536.

Le Grande Orange · 06-01-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

I'd like to see the stats that can go past 255.

I'm trying to find the post where this was mentioned in Beta forum but for some reason I can't find it using the search feature. I know it's in there somewhere...

MorseMoose · 06-01-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm trying to find the post where this was mentioned in Beta forum but for some reason I can't find it using the search feature. I know it's in there somewhere...

Thanks.

Ryan W. · 06-01-2006, 08:49 PM

In programming speak:
unsigned char (8 bits): 0-255
short int (16 bits): -32768-32768

So, you would have some files (the ones that store stats) double from their current size. Just a thought.

sporr · 06-01-2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm trying to find the post where this was mentioned in Beta forum but for some reason I can't find it using the search feature. I know it's in there somewhere...

I found it. Per Markus some stat categories which historically never got close to 255 in real life (BB, SH, SF, R, RBI etc.) do get only 8 bits (or 1 CHAR) space, which make them flip over if they get higher than 255. This was necessary to keep the league files smaller...Pitching runs and earned runs do have more space this time though.

jarmenia · 06-01-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeGrande Orange

It is not a bug, it is a database design limitation.

Its not a database limitation, it is a design flaw. Someone needs to inform Markus that its the 2006 and computers now commonly have GIGS of ram as weel as close to a Terabyte of hard drive space. There is absoutly no reason for this bug, and despite what you say it is a bug, to be in this game. None period. LONGS or Unsigned Ints, not SHORTS, should be used for all the integer stat catagories.

molarmite · 06-01-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarmenia

Its not a database limitation, it is a design flaw. Someone needs to inform Markus that its the 2006 and computers now commonly have GIGS of ram as weel as close to a Terabyte of hard drive space. There is absoutly no reason for this bug, and despite what you say it is a bug, to be in this game. None period. LONGS or Unsigned Ints, not SHORTS, should be used for all the integer stat catagories.

Does it matter? Are you ever going to have more than 255 RBI's or 255 HR's, no, so please stop complaining and just enjoy the game.

Le Grande Orange · 06-01-2006, 09:02 PM

Okay, found the post at last.

As I mentioned earlier, Markus made the decisions that statistical categories which historically never got came close to exceeding the 255 number were given 8 bits of space to store the number, limiting them to 255 before rolling over. These would include BB, SH, SF, R, RBI, HR, etc. This was done in order to help reduce the size of the league files and was a decision made early in the database design process.

Note however that R and ER for pitchers can go over 255, as extra space was alloted to them since folks sometimes ran into these limits in OOTP6 when doing historical leagues.

EDIT: Sporr beat me to it. Ah well, I'll just leave my post as is for reinforcement.

jarmenia · 06-01-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

It is best to describe it accurately, yes? Terminology does matter sometimes.

A bug is an unintended error in the code. A design limitation is exactly what it says it is - a limitation in the design.

No, a bug is an unintended problem with a program. It doesn't have to be in the code as it could be the result of a bad design. Are you saying it was an intended consiquence that a stat catagory > 255 would roll back to zero. No, you said he didn't anticipate it being a problem for some catagories. That my friend is a BUG. Granted its caused by a CRAPPY design but its still a BUG.

jarmenia · 06-01-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The game is being pulled in two different directions - those who want it to be able to replicate virtually any scenario, no matter how unlikely or how little that scenario resembles reality, and those who want it to focus on an accurate and highly realistic simulation.

At some point, design decisions have to be made as to which of these ends will lose out to some degree.

Please explaine to me how storing all stat catagories in longs or unsigned ints prevent the game from being both "able to replicate virtually and scenario, no matter how unlikely" and "to focus on an accureate and highly realistic simulation". It doesn't. Try again?

canadiancreed · 06-01-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why can't the next step up be 4,096 which is 16 cubed? In a base-16 system, 16 squared is 256, and 16 cubed is 4096, and 16 to the power of four is 65,536.

I knwo from my days as a DB guy (this was YEARS ago so), that I think if you went from tinyint to just plain int, it went from 255 to 65536. It may be different with different lanagauges as some have stated.

Le Grande Orange · 06-01-2006, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarmenia

Its not a database limitation, it is a design flaw.

I suggest you reread the part about it being done that way in order to keep league file sizes smaller. In other words, it was a tradeoff. Not everyone has the latest and greatest computer with 2GBs of RAM and hundreds of GBs of hard drive space... I know I don't.

I would also suggest you reread the part about only those deciding to create leagues which are extremely unusual in their offensive capabilities running into this problem. Most folks wanting to run leagues which mimic the actual league totals and statistics will never run into this problem.

I would then finally suggest you reread the part where I said there are two very different forces trying to pull the game in two different directions - one where any scenario is accounted for and those which want real-world scenarios accounted for. A path inbetween must be chosen.

canadiancreed · 06-01-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarmenia

Please explaine to me how storing all stat catagories in longs or unsigned ints prevent the game from being both "able to replicate virtually and scenario, no matter how unlikely" and "to focus on an accureate and highly realistic simulation". It doesn't. Try again?

does anyone else find this to be contridictoary(sp?)?

Qrusher14242 · 06-01-2006, 09:11 PM

Wow, this really sucks. We can know what he hit on 0-2 counts and on Grass and against every pitcher, but we cant hve 256 rbi's? What about the PCL? Didnt they have 200 game schedules? Gonna be hard to do those now

Hell, we can make huge universes, with 1000's of teams but we cant have 256 runs scored. I run a few very offensive leagues in 6.5 and was hoping i didnt have to sit out my guys down the stretch like before. Hope this can be changed. Or make it an option when you start the league.

sporr · 06-01-2006, 09:11 PM

Quite simply, this game was not designed for super-offense that would have players with more than 255 RBI or R. No game will ever cover all of the possibilities of the way people want to play.

Qrusher14242 · 06-01-2006, 09:15 PM

Now, can hits go over 255? If so, wouldnt that make the league size bigger?

Le Grande Orange · 06-01-2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarmenia

Please explaine to me how storing all stat catagories in longs or unsigned ints prevent the game from being both "able to replicate virtually and scenario, no matter how unlikely" and "to focus on an accureate and highly realistic simulation".

Any league where the leader hits over 255 home runs in a single season is by defintion not a league which has any resemblance to any reasonable quality pro baseball league that's ever existed that I'm aware of.

The further you go outside the norm of what has existed, the less likely the simulation is to be realistic and accurate since there is no real-world data to program it by.

Anyway, you have following choices: 1) don't create leagues with hyperactive offensive production totals and stick to values more likely to have existed in the real world, 2) stop playing the game because this design decision annoys you too much, or 3) mount a well-spoken and well-thought out campaign for Markus to re-visit this design decision.

jarmenia · 06-01-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why can't the next step up be 4,096 which is 16 cubed? In a base-16 system, 16 squared is 256, and 16 cubed is 4096, and 16 to the power of four is 65,536.

Because computers use a math system based in binary. 256 = 8 bits. The next value a signed int uses 15 bits to store the value and 1 bit to store the sign and range from -32767 to 32767. An unsigned int uses 16 bits to store the value and it holds from 0 to 65535. BTW those are minimums and on some operating systems they may actually be larger.

jarmenia · 06-01-2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molarmite

Does it matter? Are you ever going to have more than 255 RBI's or 255 HR's, no, so please stop complaining and just enjoy the game.

Yes it does matter. We were told that the 255 bug was gone and it in fact is still here. Not by mistake but by design. Thats a might big slap in the face of the customer. OOTP is built to run all types of leagues. Its billed as best used in fantasy leagues yet if you decide to play in a league with higher offense the game quickly breaks.

06-01-2006, 08:37 PM	#21
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	I'd like to see the stats that can go past 255.

06-01-2006, 08:49 PM	#25
Ryan W. Jack of all trades Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere, not sure where. Maybe nearby, maybe far away. Posts: 1,371	In programming speak: unsigned char (8 bits): 0-255 short int (16 bits): -32768-32768 So, you would have some files (the ones that store stats) double from their current size. Just a thought.

06-01-2006, 09:02 PM	#29
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	Okay, found the post at last. As I mentioned earlier, Markus made the decisions that statistical categories which historically never got came close to exceeding the 255 number were given 8 bits of space to store the number, limiting them to 255 before rolling over. These would include BB, SH, SF, R, RBI, HR, etc. This was done in order to help reduce the size of the league files and was a decision made early in the database design process. Note however that R and ER for pitchers can go over 255, as extra space was alloted to them since folks sometimes ran into these limits in OOTP6 when doing historical leagues. EDIT: Sporr beat me to it. Ah well, I'll just leave my post as is for reinforcement.

06-01-2006, 09:11 PM	#35
Qrusher14242 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,253	Wow, this really sucks. We can know what he hit on 0-2 counts and on Grass and against every pitcher, but we cant hve 256 rbi's? What about the PCL? Didnt they have 200 game schedules? Gonna be hard to do those now Hell, we can make huge universes, with 1000's of teams but we cant have 256 runs scored. I run a few very offensive leagues in 6.5 and was hoping i didnt have to sit out my guys down the stretch like before. Hope this can be changed. Or make it an option when you start the league.

06-01-2006, 09:11 PM	#36
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	Quite simply, this game was not designed for super-offense that would have players with more than 255 RBI or R. No game will ever cover all of the possibilities of the way people want to play.

06-01-2006, 09:15 PM	#37
Qrusher14242 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,253	Now, can hits go over 255? If so, wouldnt that make the league size bigger?