Goodbye Davis, not sad to see you go - Page 2

darkhorse · 02-12-2006, 08:40 PM

Ignorance is bliss.

Now Dave Bliss, there's a bad coach, and that's if he had Wooden talent.

Nirvana91 · 02-12-2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

Code:

University of Tulsa
1997-98	19-12 (.612) 	
1998-99	23-10 (.697) 	NCAA (1-1)
1999-2000	32-5 (.865) 	NCAA (3-1) Elite 8
3 Years 	74-27 (.733)

.....And zero final four appearances with those teams. The 99-00 team had the perfect shot, avoiding the heavy hitters to see #8 Carolina (finished the season unranked) in the Elite 8. Yet they lost.

The Professor · 02-12-2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana91

Well, he took an SIU Saluki program and completely revitalized it, turning the team from 3 consecutive losing seasons to 3 consecutive winning seasons and an NIT berth in 2000. And then he led the team to it's greatest season in school history, a Sweet 16appearance in 2002.

I agree with your sentiments re: Coach Weber, but about this statement...

Great season in SIU history? 2002 was awesome...but this guy and his colleagues might argue that 2002 was not the the summit for the program:

When the NIT was the tournament (or, at least, not quite the second fiddle it is today), the Salukis stunned Marquette and the crowd at Madison Square Garden to win the National Championship of 1967...easily the greatest moment in Salukis sports history (the 1983 Nat'l Football Championship and the 2002 NCAA Tourny run neck and neck for the #2 spot)

Nirvana91 · 02-12-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Professor

I agree with your sentiments re: Coach Weber, but about this statement...

Great season in SIU history? 2002 was awesome...but this guy and his colleagues might argue that 2002 was not the the summit for the program:

When the NIT was the tournament (or, at least, not quite the second fiddle it is today), the Salukis stunned Marquette and the crowd at Madison Square Garden to win the National Championship of 1967...easily the greatest moment in Salukis sports history (the 1983 Nat'l Football Championship and the 2002 NCAA Tourny run neck and neck for the #2 spot)

Man, I dunno...... Point taken, but it was nonetheless the NIT..... I'd still say the 2002 team was bigger, but then again I didn't go to SIU, and I wasn't even ALIVE for the 1967 team, so I'll just take your word for it

I guess that leads to the argument of, would you rather win the NIT or lose early on in the NCAA's?

The Professor · 02-12-2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana91

Man, I dunno...... Point taken, but it was nonetheless the NIT..... I'd still say the 2002 team was bigger, but then again I didn't go to SIU, and I wasn't even ALIVE for the 1967 team, so I'll just take your word for it

I guess that leads to the argument of, would you rather win the NIT or lose early on in the NCAA's?

Nah, the Salukis were easily one of the best teams in the country in '67...and upset some much "bigger" teams along the way. Granted, they weren't up to par with the Alcindor-led Bruins teams...but the '67 NIT title wasn't the "66th" place honor that it is today. They were a legitimate championship squad and Frazier was one of the best players in the country.

I guess it all comes down to context, but I think it is a no-brainer that the '67 team was (and remains) the greatest hoops team in SIU history. Of course, I wasn't alive for it either...but you can still take my word for it.

Anyway, back on point (sort of): Weber was a savior for the SIU program, that much is for sure. Not only that, but 2002 truly was magical (I'm glad I was in C'dale to experience the atmosphere) and he was a real class act to boot. The guy may not be a great coach, but he isn't chopped liver either. I'd say he's pretty darned good.

EDIT: re 1967. Keep this in mind, too. In '67 the Salukis wouldn't have played in the NCAA Tourny anyway. As a "small school" they were only eligible for the NCAA College Division Tourny, one they had been runner-up in for two consecutive years. Coach Jack Hartman actually turned down a bid in '67 to take his kids into the much tougher NIT so they could "prove it against the big boys"...

Dwolfson20 · 02-12-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana91

.....And zero final four appearances with those teams. The 99-00 team had the perfect shot, avoiding the heavy hitters to see #8 Carolina (finished the season unranked) in the Elite 8. Yet they lost.

It was freaking Tulsa!! I seriously can't believe you're criticizing someone for winning 32 games and getting to the Elite 8 anywhere. Forgive me if this is all a big joke, but huh?

Nirvana91 · 02-12-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

It was freaking Tulsa!! I seriously can't believe you're criticizing someone for winning 32 games and getting to the Elite 8 anywhere. Forgive me if this is all a big joke, but huh?

Hey, all I'm saying is that for all the accolades and respect he gets, he still hasn't been to a Final Four. Until that happens he will never be a top-tier coach in my book.

Dwolfson20 · 02-12-2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana91

Hey, all I'm saying is that for all the accolades and respect he gets, he still hasn't been to a Final Four. Until that happens he will never be a top-tier coach in my book.

Nirvana91 · 02-13-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

To quote the fellas on PTI for a second: "Why do we play? TO WIN THE GAME."

Sublimity · 02-13-2006, 10:29 AM

Bill Cowher had not won a Big Game before this year. Did the Super Bowl change his abilities all of a sudden?

What about Roy Williams? His abilities change because of the national championship game?

andymac · 02-13-2006, 10:45 AM

As an Illinois fan, I have had to hear this kind of crap a lot. Self may be an arrogant jerk who basically outright lied to the Illini fanbase about leaving for Kansas. However, one thing he isn't is anything less than a very good college basketball coach.

andymac · 02-13-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

Illinois offered that job to Dana Altman before Weber.

This is false, the job was never offered to Altman. He was given heavy consideration and was probably the front-runner for a while, but Weber was the only coach offered the job.

Dwolfson20 · 02-13-2006, 05:32 PM

Well, I can't find any evidence to confirm or deny that, but I do recall reports that Altman made a conscious decision not to seek the Illinois job, while he was the frontrunner, whether or not he was officially "offered" it. You may be right in the technical sense.

Dwolfson20 · 02-13-2006, 05:33 PM

Oh, and Nirvana91, you're completely ridiculous if you wouldn't take any of those four coaches in a millisecond over Bruce Weber. I have nothing more to say about that, really.

andymac · 02-13-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

Oh, and Nirvana91, you're completely ridiculous if you wouldn't take any of those four coaches in a millisecond over Bruce Weber. I have nothing more to say about that, really.

Why do you say that? Not knocking any of those coaches, but Weber has definitely shown he is a Top-Tier coach. Is it just because those coaches were successful over longer periods of time than Weber has been so far?

Dwolfson20 · 02-13-2006, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Why do you say that? Not knocking any of those coaches, but Weber has definitely shown he is a Top-Tier coach. Is it just because those coaches were successful over longer periods of time than Weber has been so far?

Yes, but I wasn't really meaning to express discontent with Weber, just outrage that anyone would slander the accomplishments of those other four. Restricting the definition of "top-tier" to "must have reached the Final Four" is absurd. So, he must think Mike Davis was a better coach than John Chaney?

Nirvana91 · 02-13-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwolfson20

Yes, but I wasn't really meaning to express discontent with Weber, just outrage that anyone would slander the accomplishments of those other four. Restricting the definition of "top-tier" to "must have reached the Final Four" is absurd. So, he must think Mike Davis was a better coach than John Chaney?

I'm not slandering anyone. Give me a break. Sure, a coach can be very good, overachieve with bad teams, etc. But all I'm saying is if you haven't reached the Final Four, you haven't accomplished the MAIN GOAL that every coach has in college basketball. How can we consider coaches who haven't reached the Final Four among the best in the game? HOW???

Nirvana91 · 02-13-2006, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimity

Bill Cowher had not won a Big Game before this year. Did the Super Bowl change his abilities all of a sudden?

What about Roy Williams? His abilities change because of the national championship game?

We're not talking about abilities at all. We're talking about ACCOMPLISHMENTS. Yes, those coaches moved up a level in their accomplishments. Until the day they won "the big one," they were nothing more than highly above average coaches. After, they were champions. There is a difference.

Someone may have a ridiculous amount of coaching talent, but that talent doesn't inherently bestow the "champion" title upon them, does it? You have to earn it.

I seriously can't believe you people are sitting here touting the accomplishments of coaches who haven't achieved their sport's most important goal as championship-caliber.

Sublimity · 02-13-2006, 10:09 PM

And I can't believe that you're saying Bill Cowher's or Roy William's coaching is any better after one day. Does their resume look spiffier? Yeah. But they were the same coach the next day, probably just happier.

Nirvana91 · 02-13-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimity

And I can't believe that you're saying Bill Cowher's or Roy William's coaching is any better after one day. Does their resume look spiffier? Yeah. But they were the same coach the next day, probably just happier.

I never said that, I said they had the same abilities, but different accomplishments.

02-12-2006, 08:40 PM	#21
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Ignorance is bliss. Now Dave Bliss, there's a bad coach, and that's if he had Wooden talent. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

02-13-2006, 10:29 AM	#30
Sublimity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: This thread. Posts: 3,199	Bill Cowher had not won a Big Game before this year. Did the Super Bowl change his abilities all of a sudden? What about Roy Williams? His abilities change because of the national championship game? __________________ mrs ria: I hereby dub Sublimity the Glorious Upholder of the 5B3. Current leading vote-getter in the Worst Poster in OT History poll.

02-13-2006, 10:45 AM	#31
andymac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Effingham, IL Posts: 5,725	As an Illinois fan, I have had to hear this kind of crap a lot. Self may be an arrogant jerk who basically outright lied to the Illini fanbase about leaving for Kansas. However, one thing he isn't is anything less than a very good college basketball coach. __________________ June Madness: Links FTB: andymac

02-13-2006, 05:32 PM	#33
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Well, I can't find any evidence to confirm or deny that, but I do recall reports that Altman made a conscious decision not to seek the Illinois job, while he was the frontrunner, whether or not he was officially "offered" it. You may be right in the technical sense. __________________

02-13-2006, 05:33 PM	#34
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Oh, and Nirvana91, you're completely ridiculous if you wouldn't take any of those four coaches in a millisecond over Bruce Weber. I have nothing more to say about that, really. __________________

02-13-2006, 10:09 PM	#39
Sublimity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: This thread. Posts: 3,199	And I can't believe that you're saying Bill Cowher's or Roy William's coaching is any better after one day. Does their resume look spiffier? Yeah. But they were the same coach the next day, probably just happier. __________________ mrs ria: I hereby dub Sublimity the Glorious Upholder of the 5B3. Current leading vote-getter in the Worst Poster in OT History poll.