Bonds or Griffey

[thehef]

Originally Posted by msupoke

Bonds could have been Ricky only if God had blessed him with poorer genes and less talent. Ricky is comparable in personality only.

I think you missed my point. Though as a Dodger fan (and as member of the human race), I despised Bonds, the above statement was not to say BB wasn't as good as Ricky. Far from it... Ricky is known as the "Greatest Leadoff Hitter of All-Time" tag. My point here...

Originally Posted by thehef

I always thought that pre-juiced Bonds could have contended for "greatest leadoff hitter of all-time" had he been given that role (not that he should have been).

...was that the pre-juice Bonds had the talent to have been the GLHOAT.

[Jerry Helper]

Originally Posted by NoOne

anyway, it'd be hard to take griffey sr. over bonds.

[msupoke]

Originally Posted by thehef

I think you missed my point. Though as a Dodger fan (and as member of the human race), I despised Bonds, the above statement was not to say BB wasn't as good as Ricky. Far from it... Ricky is known as the "Greatest Leadoff Hitter of All-Time" tag. My point here

I hated Bonds, too. I was really pointing out the similarities in their God-awful personalities.

[Marsupilami]

Bonds is a cheat.
it is always said Bonds pre PED/and after.
but what if he took things before too? only he swtiched it up to get the powernumbers up

[msupoke]

Originally Posted by Marsupilami

Bonds is a cheat.
it is always said Bonds pre PED/and after.
but what if he took things before too? only he swtiched it up to get the powernumbers up

And what if Griffey was using?

[Marsupilami]

Originally Posted by msupoke

And what if Griffey was using?

you could argue that with every single player.

however, not every player admitted using PEDs

[msupoke]

Originally Posted by Marsupilami

you could argue that with every single player.

however, not every player admitted using PEDs

Right, but he admitted to using later in his career, and the stats and body changes corroborate that. You were speculating about him using earlier in his career, so it is fair to speculate about Griffey in that same respect (only in this debate... speculation is a terrible argument).

[Marsupilami]

Originally Posted by msupoke

Right, but he admitted to using later in his career, and the stats and body changes corroborate that. You were speculating about him using earlier in his career, so it is fair to speculate about Griffey in that same respect (only in this debate... speculation is a terrible argument).

tbh, i dont know the ins and outs of when and how he admitted anything. but it looked like he only admitted after he was forced to and only to what was obvious.

and not sure how its equal thinking that a known liar (he first lied and was brought up on perjury charges, though they got dropped) and cheater is as likely to have cheated before as a player noone has under ped suspicion

[msupoke]

Originally Posted by Marsupilami

tbh, i dont know the ins and outs of when and how he admitted anything. but it looked like he only admitted after he was forced to and only to what was obvious.

and not sure how its equal thinking that a known liar (he first lied and was brought up on perjury charges, though they got dropped) and cheater is as likely to have cheated before as a player noone has under ped suspicion

You can see the change in his body type and performance when he started using. I think it is reasonable to believe he was not using at the beginning of his career.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by r0nster

Was referring to Jr

What interaction did Jr have with Sparky? When?

[r0nster]

Originally Posted by RchW

What interaction did Jr have with Sparky? When?

Griffey Jr denied giving Sparky “the bird” but he did admit to being angry: “I did say something to Sparky, and I will apologize to him for it.”

They both refused to say much beyond that but ever since that day Griffey behaved much better and not as wild and became more a mild mannered player. The only clue was later found out was Sparky told Griffey to respect the game. Happened in 1993

[DawnBTVS]

Bonds 1989-2000: 73.3 WAA, 95.9 WAR, 960 RAR
Griff 1989-2000: 51.6 WAA, 76.2 WAR, 793 RAR

Not really all that close. Bonds hit in much tougher ballparks (people forget how advantageous the Kingdome was, esp. to LHB), was the better base stealer, walked far far more while striking out just as much as Jr, was a better gap hitter, and hit into fewer double plays.

Griffey's edge was in home runs and it's worth noting that Jr only topped a .400 OBP twice in that span and never even topped 100 walks.

[swampdragon]

The question was about Barry Bonds, not SuperBonds (greater than any player in the history of the game, if you ignore the fact that he was cheating), so 2000 doesn't count.

My summary of the responses to this thread is that Bonds was a better player, but a lot of people prefer Griffey because he was also a great player and Bonds was a jerk. I can't find much to disagree with.

[r0nster]

Barry Bonds was a pure LAZY outfielder where as Griffey Jr played his heart out and Griffey didn't have a nice short right field fence to help him with HRs and a nice wind current to push it out of park in SF I would bet that Griffey would have had similar numbers had he played in SF new park half the season .... unfortunately that cannot happen in real life

[NoOne]

They were both entitled monsters.. so if personality is the deciding factor, it's more like choosing between 2 piles of pooh.

i thnk the better word is.. some people are fanatical about griffey, and some people are fanatical about bonds. fans don't care for reason.

who they "like" more wasn't the question, but that's typically what it comes down to for most people. not facts or rational and logical though, rather feelings. it's fine for this topic, but it creeps into the more important things too.

<to the confused person, had a mistype above.. context should have helped you out)

and, i think someone is giving sparky andersons "1" interaction with griffey a little too much weight (another fan?). griffey was a stud at 19 in the MLB. Long before he met sparky. unlike his dad, griffey sr., it didn't take JR ~4 years to become an offensive threat.

*going a bit on memory, looked at it the last time i posted here.. he had some rough first years and was no where near a "teen" when he figured it out. griffey jr @19 was an all-around player his rookie year and on. immediate all star / future hof candidate (with health and did make it in the end) after 4-5 years he had a ~300ba and awesome power numbers, rather insane power numbers for his age.

griffey jr may have had a work ethic up until ~30 or so. . think he had a couple good seasons after that, but most were junky relative to the first half of his career or injury-plagued. he just showed up to collect his paycheck and try to solely put his name as high as possible on the hr list wihtout care of his team.

and he most definiteyl was taking roids too. that's also why his body broke down so horribly in his 30's.. bonds started those a bit later and i think that allowed him to play longer (he was quite frail the last 2-3 years too). they are both likely having all sorts of tendon/ligament and bone problems now or in the future.

bonds was still a better. he did it longer and more consistently. 1 year window = toss up, wouldn't argue between their peak non-roided out years. however, how can you pass on a cornerstone for your team spanning more than 2 decades? rather than some broken down has been in his 30's just trying to pad his hr #'s.

[DawnBTVS]

Originally Posted by r0nster

Barry Bonds was a pure LAZY outfielder where as Griffey Jr played his heart out and Griffey didn't have a nice short right field fence to help him with HRs and a nice wind current to push it out of park in SF I would bet that Griffey would have had similar numbers had he played in SF new park half the season .... unfortunately that cannot happen in real life

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong in Griffey not being aided by the Kingdome.

The Seattle Kingdome's RCF wall was 352 by 1990 and the RF line was 312 by 1991 despite the big wall (not too un-similar to Fenway Park). Those are courtesy of ballparks.com by the way.

Candlestick Park was 365 by 1982 in RCF and 328 down the RF line by 1993 (right when Bonds was arriving). The walls weren't as high though, just 9 feet.

Kingdome was literally a dome, so wind was not a factor at all. The wind was horrendous at Candlestick Park by the 1980s and even altering the stadium, it was still really bad.

1993 Bonds: 21 HR at Candlestick vs. 25 Road
1994 Bonds: 15 HR at Candlestick vs. 22 Road
1995 Bonds: 16 HR at Candlestick vs. 17 Road
1996 Bonds: 23 HR at Candlestick vs. 19 Road
1997 Bonds: 24 HR at Candlestick vs. 16 Road

Griffey put up similar totals at the Kingdome from 1993-1997 as Bonds did at Candlestick as far as home vs. road. At best, Griffey probably would've hit either the same number of HRs or actually slightly fewer precisely due to the wind he was not dealing with at the Kingdome.

You're right Griffey probably would've put up similar numbers but for the exact wrong reasons you think as to why.

[Phantom9in]

I just remember back in the late 90's, the ONLY player being mentioned to break Hank Aaron's all-time Home Run record was Griffey Jr. Bonds wasn't even in the top 10.

[r0nster]

Originally Posted by Phantom9in

I just remember back in the late 90's, the ONLY player being mentioned to break Hank Aaron's all-time Home Run record was Griffey Jr. Bonds wasn't even in the top 10.

I so agree bonds wasn't on the radar until.... no comment

[Phantom9in]

I remember Bonds being on track for a HOF career BEFORE PEDs, he was considered one of the best natural players ever, but was not considered a power hitter.
Griffey was considered one of the most perfect swings of all time, and one of the best all around players ever.

[fahes]

Both. One thing that no one talks about, Bonds is in the 400/400 Club before the steroids products, 400 Home runs and 400 stolen bases. Both were great!