Time Warp Baseball

[scprideandms]

Arlie Latham?

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/li.../rw_040618.htm

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by jdw

> The problem w/ no WS is because our 1st 22
> seasons are phony.

I'm not sure why this would be a problem. DY ran 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1951 yet still got WS. It doesn't sound like you really need the prior season to kick out WS.


John

Because I can't tell it to just run the new ones. It wants to run all 51 years, and it errors in 1901.

[jdw]

DY - on the 1951 stuff posted:

2B
7.7 Goza
7.3 Schaldemose
6.8 Valcarcel
6.6 Brekke
6.5 Bardo

Skeeter being up there in DWS sounds completely nutty given his crappy range rating. However, he did have a really high Range Factor. DWS isn't totally driven by RngF, but making a lot of plays does give one a chance to "compete" in this. Brado also had a mediocre range rating. I'm surprised that Goza didn't run away with this *more* than Stoller did at SS.

3B
6.3 Ayers
5.7 Pursell
4.5 Nunez
4.4 Martineau
4.2 Thomas

Martineau is another with a brutal range rating popping up here. I'd be interested in seeing how many WS Jones of the Reds had so I could run a WS/1000 IP on his. He had far and away the best RngF, but was hurt and regularly rested last year.

SS
9.8 Stoller
7.4 Shadle
7.0 Lutske
7.0 Keesaer
6.8 Taylor

Stoller had the best range rating in the game last year at a 9/9 I believe. His "stats" were far below Keesaer's. Keesaer of course had the massive GB staff at his back, while Stoller didn't. Still, I'm not certain how Stoller made up the ground.

LF
4.8 Wing
3.5 Groaning
3.3 Rettig
3.1 Leibwitz
3.0 Foraker

Wing is a very good defensive OF. Rettig has a horrid range rating, be he *does* seem to have a fair number of balls hit out in his direction almost as if the OOTP6 engine likes toss balls out there to him.

CF
7.3 Walker
4.5 Young
4.4 Wynne
4.2 Fish
4.0 Albrecht

Walker and Young have that amazing range. Fish and Artie have very good range ratings as well. Wynne has mediocre range in CF, but had a lot of balls hit out there to him.

RF
4.8 Badeau
4.7 Rarick
4.1 Cooley
3.3 Fisher
3.3 Hullibgerger

Rarick has great defensive ratings. Peaches and Cooley are oddballs - they played all over the OF as the A's were deep in great defense out there. They get listed at RF because that's where each played the highest number of their innings. But there are more akin to "OF". Fish has mediocre range.

Interesting stuff. A lot of the guys up there that your would expect, along with a few oddballs. Stoller's high placement does give an indication that Stuart would consistently do well.


John

[jdw]

Okay, I get the issue Matt is having.

Matt - rather than posting them to SB.com, could you burn them on a CD and mail them to DY? That might be the easiest and at the same time go nice on your space issues.


John

[metsgeek]

Looking at the NL Leaders, it seems to me that the current top candidates for BOTY and POTY are Cy Helbig and Cotton Simson.

That would be quite the story, huh?

[DamnYankees]

I don't think it's really necessary for Matt to mail me them. I mean, if he wants to, fine with me. I'm not really doing anything special, though, jdw. If Matt wanted to, he could just create a separate CatoBase with only the years we have, and just use that one to calculate Win Shares. He wouldnt have to put it on the website, though it would be nice. He could simply report what he finds.

Mailing me the files seems awfully extravagant.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by jdw

Martineau is another with a brutal range rating popping up here. I'd be interested in seeing how many WS Jones of the Reds had so I could run a WS/1000 IP on his. He had far and away the best RngF, but was hurt and regularly rested last year.

In 101 games at third, with 807.3 inning, James Jones compiled 2.4 win shares. So if you count in innings per win share, only at 3B:

Ayers    - 184.6 I/WS - 5.4 WS/1000I
Pursell  - 223.3 I/WS - 4.5 WS/1000I
Nunez    - 186.6 I/WS - 5.4 WS/1000I
Martneau - 255.3 I/WS - 3.9 WS/1000I
Thomas   - 272.0 I/WS - 3.7 WS/1000I

Jones    - 336.4 I/WS - 3.0 WS/1000I

James Jones is still clearly nowhere near as good as those 5. Nunez is very impressive at third, but since he spend about 1/3 of his time at first, he doesn't get the respect. Nunez, by the way, had 1.1 WS/1000I at 1B, while the win shares leader, Ervin Thompsom, had 2.4 WS/1000I at 1B. Just a little perspective.

Martineau, by the way, had a fielding percentage of .967, far and away the highest in the league. The next best was Pursell at .957. A 10 point lead is quite large.

Pursell leads in most of the raw fielding stats, but he simply played many more innings than anyone else. 50 more than the next guy, Jumpin' Jim, and 110 more than the next "good" fielder, Ayers. That's 12 whole games more at 3B.

When it comes to putouts and errors, Martineau has large leads per inning played. That's why he's there, I would guess.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Carlton

I also heard Morris constantly "Pulls an Arlie Latham"

Figure out what that means

Morris ain't that dumb. He throws well to 1B, that's far enough.

I always wondered how Latham could have been so stupid. To throw as hard as he possibly could, just to see how far it could go, and ruin his arm forever. Idiot. Great personality though.

[jdw]

> James Jones is still clearly nowhere near as
> good as those 5.

Actually, Jones *is* as good as those. He's the 9/9 .952 rated 3B. The problem is that his numbers for 1951 didn't crunch well.

Why? I'm not sure. I'd have to bust out the Win Shares book and try to see what factors work against him.

Here are their "raw" numbers:

PO+A / DP / TC / E / PCT / Inn / RngF - Name
63+252 / 29 / 333 / 18 / .946 / 807.1 / 3.51 - Jones
57+256 / 19 / 332 / 19 / .943 / 839.2 / 3.35 - Nunez
109+362 / 25 / 492 / 21 / .957 / 1272.2 / 3.33 - Pursell
95+330 / 30 / 446 / 21 / .953 / 1162.2 / 3.29 - Ayers
74+314 / 29 / 412 / 24 / .942 / 1142.1 / 3.06 - Thomas
99+287 / 25 / 399 / 13 / .967 / 1123.1 / 3.09 - Martneau

Per 1000 IP, here's the successful chances they make (TC-E):

391 - Jones
373 - Nunez
370 - Pursell
366 - Ayers
344 - Martneau
340 - Thomas

He has the highest Assist number - 7 more than Jones, and 27 more than anyone else. Martneau, Nicky and Ayers have 4-10 more PO per 1000 IP. Jones has 36 DP per 1000 IP, while the others are in the 20-26 range. Martneau has the fewest errors with 12, Tito Jr. has the most with 23, while Jones is next with 22.

That is about what one would expect when looking at the RngF and the raw numbers.

Pursell and Jones played behind some strong GB pitchers, and WS has ways of trying to figure out the GB factor of a team. the Reds staff was probably the most extreme GB team in the game, and even moreso this year. The Reds and Giants were also weak K teams, meaning more balls in play. They were low HR allowed teams, again more balls in play.

Being GB teams, Nicky and Jones also played next to good range fielders in the IF:

8-8-9 Goza-Keesaer-Jones
7-7-6 Howard-Roth-Pursell

Those guys "take" a fair number of outs away that on other teams would go through as hits and then cycle through later in the game(s) as TC for Jones and Nicky.

Like I say, I'll have to poke around. Jones is pretty close to the Stuart level of "ratings" for his position. If over the course of the last four years he rated low in WS/1000, it would raise a red flag. That said, I doubt the Ted ever:

* played with in a 2B-SS-3B combo with as high of ratings as the Reds did last year. Ted and Pokey when paired had better ranges than Goza and Keesaer, but Jones laps Moe's range.

* played with quite as extreme of a GB staff as the Reds were last year. He likely would play behind some GB pitchers, but most of his career was pre-Live, and the AI GMs didn't care enough about GB pitchers like the Reds, Phils and Tigers have flashed from time to time in the Live Era.

What's also funny is that Jones' raw numbers in 1951 are the best of his career. It's the lowest PO/1000 he has had, but the A/1000 runs circles around what he's done.

Odd...

[pat]

Originally Posted by metsgeek

Looking at the NL Leaders, it seems to me that the current top candidates for BOTY and POTY are Cy Helbig and Cotton Simson.

That would be quite the story, huh?

Heh. Stop it.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Morris ain't that dumb. He throws well to 1B, that's far enough.

I always wondered how Latham could have been so stupid. To throw as hard as he possibly could, just to see how far it could go, and ruin his arm forever. Idiot. Great personality though.

$$$ and ego.

Hey he was the "Freshest Man on Earth"!

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by metsgeek

I gotta agree that there's no reason to be jealous of me, since I have yet to win a World Series. The only team to envy would be the Phillies and they are definitely rebuilding now.

1950 was a weird season. Everything that went right for me in '49 went wrong in '50. With most of my talent in their late 20's, I couldn't see rebuilding, so I decided to trade away my minor leagues and add key components to the major league club. Since I've been managing, the team has gone from having a farm system near the bottom to the 3rd or 4th best system and back down to the bottom again. If the Puglieses had developed more quickly, I probably would have gone in a different direction. I've never been too patient with prospects, though. To me, it's all about the ring.

That's why I love Pete

ALL ABOUT THE RING!

These last two years have taught me a very valuable lesson.
I should have stuck with Rauch, et al...and said the hell with prospects.
Sure the A's and Indians make good with propsects, but if I stuck to my guns, I'd beat them in a NY minute

I hate finishing less than 1st...McGrawism to the highest degree in Philly town or should I say "Allenism"

[jdw]

*dusting off the WS book*

It looks like the "claim" percentages for 3B are:

50 - Assists
30 - Errors
10 - Sacrifice bunts allowed
10 - DP

Okay, I think I see where Jones starts to take it in the shorts. The Red because of the extreme GB staff had 2167 Assists, which was 178 more than the #2 team in the NL (the Giants not surprisingly), and 251 above "average" for the league.

Given the number of assists that the team has, Reds 3B would have been "expected" to have 413 assists.

They actually had 419, for +6.

The Cards (Tito and Cook) were +34, and the Giants (Nicky) were +17.

Jones and his partners around the IF, _and_ the GB staff, were so effective at what they combined to do that they likely collectively lowered the number that each individually reached.

For what James is trying to do, it does make sense. I suspect that the team IF defensive WS for the Reds in 1951 was relatively good, but it was spread around the IF.

John

[canadiancreed]

For what James is trying to do, it does make sense. I suspect that the team IF defensive WS for the Reds in 1951 was relatively good, but it was spread around the IF.

Rather have a wall for a IF than just one wall and three open doors

[jdw]

> These last two years have taught me a very
> valuable lesson.
>
> I should have stuck with Rauch, et al...and said
> the hell with prospects.
>
> Sure the A's and Indians make good with
> propsects, but if I stuck to my guns, I'd beat
> them in a NY minute

But... but... but...

Rauch brought you Sardina, Garvin, Davis, Rael and Schuldt and those guys were great... or something.

It would have been interesting to watch the 1950 season if you decided to try for the three-peat after the Fellner-Keyes deal by the Cards. It was after that when you made the Sisk & Albrecht for Lett & Mau & Bray & Pazik deal. The Rauch deal didn't happen until after the first SIM. The cupboard was really think for prospects to trade for, and a good batch of the rest of the NL was loaded up to compete (Cards, Giants, Braves, Cubs), and I don't recall if anyone in the AL was in Fire Sale mode where lots of their talent was available.

You had holes at SS and 3B, and Baker on one of the wings was washed up. The pitching staff was excellent until a late season fade. Perly hit the wall within a month of being traded, so that would have been an ugly decline. It would have been interesting to see what you could shake out to fill spots.

The Cards only made one deal after their two "off season" trades. They didn't really blow the doors off the league. It would have been interesting to see how they opperated if the rest of the league was a bit tougher. They didn't have a lot of additional chips to move.

Part of what kept the Phils in the race early were Bray and Carte combining to go 19-10 in the frst half. One assumes Sisk and Artie might have been held onto, which takes Bray (and of course Lett) out of the equation. One doubts the Giants would trade a prospect of Lett's talents without getting frontline talent back. And if Sisk was around, and the Phils shook the tree for another "reliable vet", would Carte have started the season in the rotation and had his typical strong early start?

It would have been really interesting.


John

[Matt from TN]

1952 All-Star Game
Shibe Park, Philadelphia

BOX SCORE

In the top of the 4th, Cubs pitcher Randy Liebermann hit the recently controversial Boston SS Morris Lutske with a pitch to load the bases with 2 out. Washington outfielder Bill Hall singled home two runs to get the AL on the board. The NL responded in the bottom of that inning with 2 runs off a Ken Chaucer homerun. Pitching was the name of the game otherwise with 15 strikeouts recorded by both teams. In the 8th, the AL blew it open off Cardinals pitcher Grady Ingram. The fatal blow was a 3-run homer by pinch-hitter Em Pelto of the Red Sox.

            1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9    R  H E 
AL Allstars 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 4 0    6  7 0 
NL Allstars 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0    2  7 3

WP: Bob Stevens, PHA
LP: Grady Ingram, STL
MVP: Em Pelto, BOS, PH 3-run HR in the 8th

American League Starters:
C Hershel Lee, PHA
1B Vince Chipple, SLA
2B Hans Habermehl, PHA*
3B Luther Ormiston, DET
SS Morris Lutske, BOS*
LF Ray Kress, DET
CF Rudel Dietrich, CLE*
RF Will Groaning, BOS
SP Corky Stell, DET

Reserves:
SP Carpenter Erickson, NYA*
SP Bud Ulrich, DET*
SP Joe Lutske, BOS*
SP Bob Stevens, PHA*
SP Danny Mau, PHA*
SP Hal Andrew, DET*
RP Cal Granger, PHA
RP Lloyd Wyman, DET
RP Billy Hyberg, BOS
C Em Pelto, BOS*
1B Arnie Stewart, NYA*
2B Matt Perly, DET*
3B Bud Ayers, PHA*
LF Grady Fisher, BOS
CF Peaches Badeau, PHA
CF Bill Hall, WSH

National League Starters:
C Chuck Rauch, CHN
1B Ken Chaucer, BSN
2B Tom Howard, NYG
3B Ike Walker, PIT
SS Wilbur Taylor, CHN
LF Ogden Wing, STL*
CF Cy Helbig, STL
RF William Perry, PIT*
SP Cotton Simson, PIT

Reserves:
SP Garland Sisk, NYG
SP Randy Liebermann, CHN
SP Charlie Lustgarten, CHN
SP Martin Gwaltney, PIT
SP Grady Ingram, STL
SP Gene Masarech, STL
RP Daniel Blisit, NYG
RP Bob Rustia, BSN
RP James Brandl, CIN
C Herman Dunkel, STL*
1B Bobby Johnson, CHN
2B Mike Fellner, STL
2B Herm Vardaman, PIT
LF Don Myer, CHN*
CF Artie Albrecht, NYG*
RF Chris Hulliberger, CHN

* denotes ancestor

Next All-Star Game scheduled at Fenway Park, Boston

[jdw]

> 1952 All-Star Game
> Shibe Park, Philadelphia
>
> American League Starters:
> C Hershel Lee, PHA
> 2B Hans Habermehl, PHA*
>
> Reserves:
> SP Bob Stevens, PHA*
> SP Danny Mau, PHA*
> RP Cal Granger, PHA
> 3B Bud Ayers, PHA*
> CF Peaches Badeau, PHA
>
> National League Starters:
>
> Reserves:
>

All Star Game in Philly.

Seven members of the World Champion A's.

Zero* members of the Phillies.

Ouch.


* Sisk is mislabled as a Phil. He's currently a Giant.


John

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by jdw

All Star Game in Philly.

Seven members of the World Champion A's.

Zero* members of the Phillies.

Ouch.

And it was a game "hosted" by the Phillies.

[fvamos]

Love that Lutske took it in the back, absolutely fitting

[canadiancreed]

geeze only one all star from the Reds and it's a reliver. that jsut shows how bad we're stinking up the joint this year