Time Warp Baseball

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Exaclty. This was all completely meant in fun. I'm in no way pissed off. I got beat in the battle of the media, and I humbly submit. Of course, this error about Nagel has no actual impact on who won that little Kerfuffle between Lutske and Baker, but like in real life, seems my side has lost quite a bit of credibility.

I just though having an ex-teammate like Helbig say something so outrageous required something in return, of equal value. John basically called Morris the worst teammate ever. I mean, how many people in real life can you think of who had teammates rooting against him? Jack Parkman is all I got, and he ain't real. Not even Bonds is that hated in his own clubhouse.

But this was a weekend, with no sim. We need to do stuff to keep this busy. This won't be the last time! Hopefully next time I'll be a little more accurate though.

Battle well fought, John. I lay down my pen.

I enjoyed this. Turk is not an ancestor, so it was interesting to see a personality given to a name & face. Now he's all the more "real."

[canadiancreed]

and here i figured it'd be a slow day since it' teh weekend. wow

[metsgeek]

One final note from Cort. He has no recollection of ever claiming that he was in the military. Perhaps it was all that tequila the reporter was buying for him....

[jdw]

> One final note from Cort. He has no
> recollection of ever claiming that he was in
> the military. Perhaps it was all that tequila
> the reporter was buying for him....



I think Cort was throwing them back in honor of his former teammate Tequila passing away, and a Globe reporter took advantage of him.

Cort should learn only to talk to people from The Sporting News. :P


John

[jdw]

> and here i figured it'd be a slow day
> since it' teh weekend. wow

It was a slow day.


John

[jdw]

> I just though having an ex-teammate like
> Helbig say something so outrageous required
> something in return, of equal value. John
> basically called Morris the worst teammate
> ever. I mean, how many people in real life can
> you think of who had teammates rooting
> against him? Jack Parkman is all I got, and he
> ain't real. Not even Bonds is that hated in his
> own clubhouse.

The comments were a bit of a old riff on Steve Garvey, along with other players.

Garv had the All American rep, and all his teammates hated him for (i) being a phony, (ii) the media fawning over him, and (iii) being the Poster Boy for the Dodgers, especially pushed by the Front Office. As the 70s went on, especially after the fight with Sutton, you would hear comments that all Garvey really cared about where his 200 hits, his .300 BA, and his 100 RBI. I even seem to recall reading comments about the 2nd place finishes in 1975 and 1976 that his teammates believed he was more interested in his own statline than winning.

Some of that has come out late in Garv's career and in his post-career when his phoniness has been exposed dramatically. But it was out in the open in the 70s, though the Dodger Media Machine (which was amazingly skillful in this city) did a great job of smoothing it over.

The rooting for a non-teammate to win something rather than a teammate... I know I've run across that comment before, and will kick myself in the rear when I remember it.

So pretty much I painted him as Steve Garvey, leaving out the phony All American, Apple Pie image while behind the scenes banging women all across the country.

I'd point out it's hardly the worst type of teammate I could have painted him as. I avoided calling him a "jake", which is just about the worst insult players toss at one another.


John

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by jdw

The comments were a bit of a old riff on Steve Garvey, along with other players.

Garv had the All American rep, and all his teammates hated him for (i) being a phony, (ii) the media fawning over him, and (iii) being the Poster Boy for the Dodgers, especially pushed by the Front Office. As the 70s went on, especially after the fight with Sutton, you would hear comments that all Garvey really cared about where his 200 hits, his .300 BA, and his 100 RBI. I even seem to recall reading comments about the 2nd place finishes in 1975 and 1976 that his teammates believed he was more interested in his own statline than winning.

The rooting for a non-teammate to win something rather than a teammate... I know I've run across that comment before, and will kick myself in the rear when I remember it.

I'd point out it's hardly the worst type of teammate I could have painted him as. I avoided calling him a "jake", which is just about the worst insult players toss at one another.


John

Yeah, but Garvey deserved it. Morris has no history of it, and you just seemed to bring it up out of nowhere. Didn't really seem right. The fact that Pete and I (mainly me) harp about the batting title...well, have you ever met a Red Sox fan?

Also, Morris does have 2 rings, and got to another Series in '49.

I tend to think if someone is going to intentionally paint an ancestor as a jerk, phony, or jackass, it should be the descendent. What I did to Cort was by accident, I was actually trying to save him. Obviously, I suck at that lol.

And John, it's ok to admit your jealous. Not everyone can be as good as these Sox...we in the Nation sympathize with your Tigers' lack of rings.

PS: I'm embarrassed to ask this, in that I consider myself fairly well-versed in baseball, but what's so bad about being a 'jake'? I've heard the insult before, but don't know much about it. Enlighten me?

[jdw]

> And John, it's ok to admit your jealous. Not
> everyone can be as good as these Sox...we in
> the Nation sympathize with your Tigers' lack
> of rings.

I'm not terribly jealous of the Red Sox. I admire what Pete has done to make them consistently competative. He appeared to be in rebuilding as 1950 went along, then still had so much talent that the team found themselves looking good last year, and then he put the pedal to the medal this season. I learn a lot by watching Pete build and adjust his team.

Of Morris as an ancestor? Not really. I enjoy the running frustration that Doc's career has been. I've had a lot of fun with it. And rather than an unending string of highs, as long as I'm around TWB, I'll never forgot that day of logging on to the site and seeing the results of the 1947 World Series, sifting through the box scores and game logs, and thrusting my fist up in the air with "whoos!" Or in the other direction, logging on with just a SIM away from Doc almost certainly going to his first (and "would have been" only) All Star Game, only to see his had a nutty SEI and banging my head against the desk. If I can take one crystal clear high of all highs, one crystal clear brutal low, and loads of other "fun" out of Doc's being a part of TWB, I come out ahead.


> PS: I'm embarrassed to ask this, in that I
> consider myself fairly well-versed in baseball,
> but what's so bad about being a 'jake'? I've
> heard the insult before, but don't know much
> about it. Enlighten me?

A "jake" is a player who's regularly out of the lineup due to injuries, with the term being rolled out when it's thought he's not really hurt or not as hurt as he claims. He's letting down his teammates by not playing.

Rickey Henderson was accused of jaking in his days with the Yanks in 1987-1989, then suddenly being a-o-kay when traded to the A's part way through 1989. The tag was applied to him often in the 90s.

It's one thing for teammates to universally dislike a player, like most people in San Fran disliked both Bonds and Kent. But players knew that Barry and Kent would go out there on the field and play.

Chris Brown, on the other hand, had all world talent, but the old $2 brain and was a total jake with injuries.


John

[jdw]

BTW, DY - setting all of this less important stuff aside...

I see that you were the one earlier in the thread working with the CSV's to run Win Shares. I don't know if you used Catobase for that, or something else. As you can see from Matt's Catobase work, he's run into a problem getting it to kick out WS. Is there anything you can do to help him with it?

The reason I ask is...

Ted Stuart is up for the HOF this season I believe. I also hazzard a guess that he's the best defensive SS (and quite possibly *player*) in the seasons that we have the CSV's for. I, and almost certainly JT, would be very, very, very interested in seeing what WS does for Ted's candidacy for the HOF.

I'm more than just "open" to voting for Ted. I'd like to actively advocate people voting for him. But I'd like to have that extra bullet in my and JT's holster:

"Those Gold Gloves aren't a fluke. Look at those WS over there. See that?"

Any voodoo you can help Matt with on this?


John

[DamnYankees]

I'll do everything I can, but I'd need access to the league files. If Matt has room to put them all up, I'd be glad to do what I can. I'm not all that techincally savvy, but I think I know my way around CatoBase.

When I was doing the Win Shares before, my computer crashed, and I lost use of it for a month. That's why I only did 2 seasons. I'd love to do the rest of them, with Win Shares.

But I need the league files.

[DamnYankees]

Well, John inspired me to do a little Cato work. Here are your Win Shares leaders from last season, 1951:

Batters

1.    Ray Kress             DET    39.8
2.    Hans Habermehl        PHA    34.6
3.    Will Groaning 	    CHN    33.2
4.    Ogden Wing 	    STL    31.7
5.    Howard Ayers          PHA    30.8

Pitchers

1.    Cotton Simson         SLA    30.9
2.    Grady Ingram          STL    28.0
3.    Walter Pond 	    NYG    27.4
4.    Ellis Weeks           PHA    26.5
5.    Bob Stevens 	    PHA    24.6

Good stuff. Very nice season by Pond as a rookie, but nowhere near the record of 36 WS by then-rookie Johnny Champagne.

[jdw]

DY - what were the top 5 DWS at each position?

[DamnYankees]

Ok...this is gonna be a long list...since I'm about to go to bed, I'm not gonna list the team. Takes a little too long to format it...

C

1) Tioni   8.6
2) Rauch   8.5
3) Slater  7.5
4) Jones   7.2
5) Kruyt   6.2

1B

1) Thompson   3.0
2) Arrendale  2.7
3) Wilson     2.7
4) McMurray   2.6
5) Chacuer    2.5

2B

1) Goza        7.7
2) Schaldemose 7.3
3) Valcarcel   6.8
4) Brekke      6.6
5) Bardo       6.5

3B

1) Ayers       6.3
2) Pursell     5.7
3) Nunez       4.5
4) Martineau   4.4
5) Thomas      4.2

SS

1) Stoller    9.8
2) Shadle     7.4
3) Lutske     7.0
4) Keesaer    7.0
5) Taylor     6.8

LF

1) Wing        4.8
2) Groaning    3.5
3) Rettig      3.3
4) Leibwitz    3.1
5) Foraker     3.0

CF

1) Walker      7.3
2) Young       4.5
3) Wynne       4.4
4) Fish        4.2
5) Albrecht    4.0

RF

1) Badeau        4.8
2) Rarick        4.7
3) Cooley        4.1
4) Fisher        3.3
5) Hullibgerger  3.3

Whew. My vote for Defensive Player of the Year goes to the A's Todd Walker.

[DamnYankees]

Matt, just an idea. Perhaps for a few hours tomorrow you could remove something from the website and just put up the league files. For just long enough so I, or anyone, could download them. Then we could really evaluate Stuart, and many others.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by jdw

> And John, it's ok to admit your jealous. Not
> everyone can be as good as these Sox...we in
> the Nation sympathize with your Tigers' lack
> of rings.

I'm not terribly jealous of the Red Sox. I admire what Pete has done to make them consistently competative. He appeared to be in rebuilding as 1950 went along, then still had so much talent that the team found themselves looking good last year, and then he put the pedal to the medal this season. I learn a lot by watching Pete build and adjust his team.

Of Morris as an ancestor? Not really. I enjoy the running frustration that Doc's career has been. I've had a lot of fun with it. And rather than an unending string of highs, as long as I'm around TWB, I'll never forgot that day of logging on to the site and seeing the results of the 1947 World Series, sifting through the box scores and game logs, and thrusting my fist up in the air with "whoos!" Or in the other direction, logging on with just a SIM away from Doc almost certainly going to his first (and "would have been" only) All Star Game, only to see his had a nutty SEI and banging my head against the desk. If I can take one crystal clear high of all highs, one crystal clear brutal low, and loads of other "fun" out of Doc's being a part of TWB, I come out ahead.


> PS: I'm embarrassed to ask this, in that I
> consider myself fairly well-versed in baseball,
> but what's so bad about being a 'jake'? I've
> heard the insult before, but don't know much
> about it. Enlighten me?

A "jake" is a player who's regularly out of the lineup due to injuries, with the term being rolled out when it's thought he's not really hurt or not as hurt as he claims. He's letting down his teammates by not playing.

Rickey Henderson was accused of jaking in his days with the Yanks in 1987-1989, then suddenly being a-o-kay when traded to the A's part way through 1989. The tag was applied to him often in the 90s.

It's one thing for teammates to universally dislike a player, like most people in San Fran disliked both Bonds and Kent. But players knew that Barry and Kent would go out there on the field and play.

Chris Brown, on the other hand, had all world talent, but the old $2 brain and was a total jake with injuries.


John

I also heard Morris constantly "Pulls an Arlie Latham"

Figure out what that means

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

Matt, just an idea. Perhaps for a few hours tomorrow you could remove something from the website and just put up the league files. For just long enough so I, or anyone, could download them. Then we could really evaluate Stuart, and many others.

I don't have enough space to put up more than 1 or 2 or 3 at a time.

The problem w/ no WS is because our 1st 22 seasons are phony. What I can do is run CB on just our existing seasons & then copy just the WS pages online.

[metsgeek]

Originally Posted by Carlton

I also heard Morris constantly "Pulls an Arlie Latham"
Figure out what that means

I hope it doesn't mean "publicly grooms his nether regions in the locker room".

[metsgeek]

Originally Posted by jdw

I'm not terribly jealous of the Red Sox. I admire what Pete has done to make them consistently competative. He appeared to be in rebuilding as 1950 went along, then still had so much talent that the team found themselves looking good last year, and then he put the pedal to the medal this season. I learn a lot by watching Pete build and adjust his team

I gotta agree that there's no reason to be jealous of me, since I have yet to win a World Series. The only team to envy would be the Phillies and they are definitely rebuilding now.

1950 was a weird season. Everything that went right for me in '49 went wrong in '50. With most of my talent in their late 20's, I couldn't see rebuilding, so I decided to trade away my minor leagues and add key components to the major league club. Since I've been managing, the team has gone from having a farm system near the bottom to the 3rd or 4th best system and back down to the bottom again. If the Puglieses had developed more quickly, I probably would have gone in a different direction. I've never been too patient with prospects, though. To me, it's all about the ring.

[jdw]

> The problem w/ no WS is because our 1st 22
> seasons are phony.

I'm not sure why this would be a problem. DY ran 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1951 yet still got WS. It doesn't sound like you really need the prior season to kick out WS.


John

[Vris]

DY ran all those seperately though. Matt's trying to do them accumulative.