Time Warp Baseball

[jdw]

"I'd just like to say that the writer of that Globe article never spoke with me. I have no comment on this whole thing, as you fellows with the Press here in Detroit would know. I'm not one to comment on things that don't touch the Tigers. The boys and I are just trying to get back to the Series right now."
-Ray Kress




John

[DamnYankees]

Ok, you can't retract a statement you didn't even make jdw. Let's play this game square. I got Kress on my side, and you know it.

[jdw]

> Sorry jdw, but you've gone too far! . Prepare
> for a report excoriating Helbig. To demean a
> man's military service...well, that's too damn
> far.

I didn't bring up the Military Service, nor did Helbig. Nagel did, and it would have been best to check Nagel's lack of service before using him to bash Helbig over the head. If you want to join the Press Corp, you need to learn to fact check.

Morris serving in *just* 1943 has always been odd. Which is why *I* would never have brought up the issue in an article. It also would never be something I would have someone toss in his face... unless service is first raised by someone else. Morris has plenty of issues for players who don't like him to go after, which is why I went after the Hits and BA.

> By the way, I won't be commenting on it in
> my news report, but Doug Noe is the manager.
> He's listed as such in the league reports and I
> can't find anything on the forums to disupute
> this. If you can prove otherwise, I'll admit fault.

Each year there is the Manager's Thread:

Managers for 1952

That's the one for 1952. Noe quit at the end of last season, and Vic took over. Matt just has been slow in updating the Summary post.

I'll repeat the wisdom of the droid:

"Let's the Wookie win."
-C3-PO

John

SOLO: "Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee."

C3-PO: "But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid."

SOLO: "That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their socket when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that."

C3-PO: "I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2. Let the Wookiee win."

[DamnYankees]

Boston, MA - It's a full on battle of pride, now. With Cy Helbig's new accusations that Nagel never served, everything is on the table. Nagel is pissed.

"This is ****ing outrageous. Pardon my langauge, but I can't believe this. The man looks at my stats, and determines I never served? Bull****. He thinks he knows more than the entire press corps?

"If he gave a damn to look it up, I'm a Taccoa man. I played 28 games to start the 1942 season, then signed up. With a shortage of players we were going with a basically 3 man rotation in AA, and I got in those 28 games in about 3 months. Trained in Georgia before joining up with Dog Company. I heard stories of Easy's trouble with Capt. Sobel...we don't need to get into that. Glad to discuss it at another time though.

"I was in the service from July '42 through May '44. I got a monthlong leave in '43, so I did what any sensible man would do with his time off: I played ball. Got my first crack at the bigs in 43, and it was on my leave. Yeah, I got lucky. Never had to drop into France like some guys, but to say 'hey, he played 20 games in '43, so he must not have served'? Utter and complete ****. Go to my CO Col. Spiers and tell him I didn't serve."

As researched by this paper, it is clear that Nagel did in fact serve. The Department of Defense corroborates his story fully, as does Col. Spiers, currently training paratroopers in northern Georgia.

Helbig also was incorrect in his characterization of Morris' wounds. Morris served 9 months in the military before a stray mortar shell wounded his leg during training exercises. While Morris did not go to Europe, he has never claimed he did. Cort Nagel, too, never made this claim.

It is clear that this battle is not likely to subside soon. Until Helbig can explain his dramatic mistakes, the public is left only to wonder what will happen next.

[jdw]

> "I was in the service from May '42 through
> August '44. I got a monthlong leave in '43, so I
> did what any sensible man would do with his
> time off: I played ball. Got my first crack at the
> bigs in 43, and it was on my leave.

Major League Games Pitched By Cort Nagel In 1943:
3 - April
3 - May
1 - June
3 - July
2 - August
0 - September

Transactions:
Wednesday 4/1/1943
Cort Nagel was promoted from AAA to the active roster.

Saturday 8/8/1943 :
Cort Nagel was sent down from the active roster to AA.

Monday 9/1/1943 :
Cort Nagel was promoted from AA to the active roster.

Monday 9/28/1943 :
Cort Nagel was sent down from the active roster to AA .

Minor League Games In 1943:
4 Games Started

Which fits being sent down from 08/08/43 to 09/01/43 and getting four games started.

Well, that takes care of 1943. He was in TWB (in the majors and minors) the _entire_ years.

In 1942, he made 28 *starts* in the minors. That's a full season in the minors. Then...

Sunday 4/1/1942:
Cort Nagel was promoted from AA to AAA .

Monday 9/28/1942 :
Cort Nagel was sent down from the active roster to AAA .

He was called up in September, but wasn't thought to be good enough to pitch.

So scratch 1942.

1944?

Nagel claims to have been in the service from April through August?

Cort Nagel Starts In The Minors In 1944:
26 - AA
1 - AAA

Transactions?

Monday 3/2/1944 :
Morris Lutske returned from military service

Ooops... wrong person.

Wednesday 7/1/1944 :
Cort Nagel was promoted from AA to AAA .

Saturday 7/4/1944 :
Cort Nagel was sent down from AAA to AA .

Injuries?

Tuesday 7/7/1944 :
Cort Nagel was injured while pitching.
Diagnosis: Stiff Shoulder.
He is day-to-day, but full recovery will take 6 days.

Wow~! Nagel somehow hurt his arm while serving in the war while also pitching in AA.

Tuesday 8/18/1944 :
Cort Nagel was injured while pitching.
Diagnosis: Tight Shoulder.
He will be OK in about one week.

Well, this was after his "discharge".

I'm going to assume that there is no dispute that Cort didn't sneak off for a few months to War in 1945?

DY - Cort Nagel didn't go to war. It's fairly easy to go back through the thread or the almanacs to find out of someone did or didn't.

So you've basically shown:

(i) Cort Nagel is a liar. No, that's not accurate. Cort is a Pathological & Delusional Liar. I suspect that his decendant isn't too pleased! :P

(ii) that we can't take anything written in "this paper (which I assume is the Boston Globe ) as the truth.

With Nagel and the Globe as defense for Morris... well, OJ would have gone to the slammer with a defense like this.

Quit while you're way behind. Trust me when I say that I'll find the right moment for a "Morris Redeems Himself" piece. Lord knows he's a great enough player, and the Sox are consistently good enough, to give me plenty of opportunities to do so.


John

[DamnYankees]

Haha, damn. I can't beat you John.

Cort's a damn liar, ain't he? Too bad. But let's not forget why we started all this to begin with. Morris kicked Baker's ass, and that's all that matters.

[Vris]

DY, I wouldn't put words in players mouths, especially ancestors. You don't own a team so you shouldn't be saying anything involving the players.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Vris

DY, I wouldn't put words in players mouths, especially ancestors. You don't own a team so you shouldn't be saying anything involving the players.

1) Morris is my ancestor, and he was put in a situation and commented upon without my consent. I'm not bitter about it, in fact I like it. I'm just pointing it out.
2) John doesn't own a team either. We both did, but stepped back due to lack of time, and we will have teams when we expand. I don't see owning a team as being a pre-requisite to being involved in this community.
3) I was not aware than Cort Nagel was an ancestor. Is he?
4) John put words into the mouths of 2 Yankees and Cy Helbig. I'm not at all offended by it, but when he did I assumed it was ok.

If what I put into "news reports" offended somebody, I apologize. I just thought this was a good, fun story. Will surely add alot of spice to the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry. If what I did was so egregious that you think it's worthy of me deleting the posts, alright. I tend to think this was fun and added, but I apologize if someone was truly offended.

[Vris]

Nagel is metsgeek's ancestor.

I overreacted. My apologies.

[Vris]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

2) John doesn't own a team either. We both did, but stepped back due to lack of time, and we will have teams when we expand. I don't see owning a team as being a pre-requisite to being involved in this community.

John spends a lot of time on TWB, more so than most owners. I think he has more power to say things than almost anyone.

Just because you are on the waiting list does not give you journalistic responsibilities. The only reason I brought it up is because you totally missed on Nagel's war time, or lack there of. That's a major lack of research on your part.

[jdw]

> 3) I was not aware than Cort Nagel was an
> ancestor. Is he?

The various Nagels are Pete's.

As are the various Dittys who I put words into the mouth of. I tried to keep him in Yankees vs. Red Sox mode... and not have him be a liar. :P

Helbig isn't an ancestor. Checking the ancestor thread, I don't see Baker as being an ancerstor.

Kress isn't an ancestor, but he's sort of a Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams character in the game - one of the Best of the Best. It's a bit like Dodge Lee or Andew Murphy - one has to be really careful when putting any words into their mouths. When doing that piece on Bussman's 200th win, I said a lot of crappy things about Sard, but the quotes from Hitman and Rhino stuck to "classy" rather than being drawn into anything by the press.

I think Turk may end up being a HOFer, especially if he bumps back up in talent. But he hasn't flashed Kress-like talent, so I feel safer putting words in his mouth.

With Kress in the past, like the piece when he joined the All Time Top 25 in HR, I stuck to the old "say the right things" path. "Crap" is something he would say in the 40s/50s in the press. Too worried about all those young kids across the country who look up to him. On something like Mo vs. Turk & Helbig, he'd never say anything on the record - it's not his problem.


John

[jdw]

Also to be clear - I don't want to be too hard on him. I spurred this on more than him.

I got a laugh out of the item that Matt wrote. Knowing Brady is into his second straight depressing year with the Yanks, made the comment about him checking this out and that it might put a smile on his face to see Turk taking it to Lutzke. That pretty much got it going, and I took it to another level by having Turk, Young, Schnozz and Helbig running in like the Four Horsemen to beat down Lutzke. Call having too much "fun".

I certainly don't want to have DY pissed off, or get frustrated with TWB. We need future GMs who enjoyed TWB as much time as he does, and are willing to invest time in it. If Enk takes the Expos and DY takes over the Dodgers, we'll have plenty of time for some Dodgers vs. Giants rivalry. I suspect we'll ask Matt to postpone TWB's equiv of the Juan Marichal incident until after DY takes over. :P


John

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

By the way, I won't be commenting on it in my news report, but Doug Noe is the manager. He's listed as such in the league reports and I can't find anything on the forums to disupute this. If you can prove otherwise, I'll admit fault.

YEah, I noticed after last sim I hadn't updated that yet. If I'm not mistaken, I've updated the other 3 new managers, just not this one.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Vris

Nagel is metsgeek's ancestor.

I overreacted. My apologies.

We still count Pete's ancestors? If we lay off them, that's like 12% of the entire league.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Vris

John spends a lot of time on TWB, more so than most owners. I think he has more power to say things than almost anyone.

Just because you are on the waiting list does not give you journalistic responsibilities. The only reason I brought it up is because you totally missed on Nagel's war time, or lack there of. That's a major lack of research on your part.

Oh of course, John has almost as much authority as Matt in these discussions. I didn't mean to tread on him in any way, just thought it was fun.

And let's be honest, Nagel might have lied. George O'Leary anyone? How about Butch Husky? It happens.

And never forget: If all else fails, I'm an idiot.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by jdw

> 3) I was not aware than Cort Nagel was an
> ancestor. Is he?

The various Nagels are Pete's.

As are the various Dittys who I put words into the mouth of. I tried to keep him in Yankees vs. Red Sox mode... and not have him be a liar. :P

Helbig isn't an ancestor. Checking the ancestor thread, I don't see Baker as being an ancerstor.

Kress isn't an ancestor, but he's sort of a Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams character in the game - one of the Best of the Best. It's a bit like Dodge Lee or Andew Murphy - one has to be really careful when putting any words into their mouths. When doing that piece on Bussman's 200th win, I said a lot of crappy things about Sard, but the quotes from Hitman and Rhino stuck to "classy" rather than being drawn into anything by the press.

I think Turk may end up being a HOFer, especially if he bumps back up in talent. But he hasn't flashed Kress-like talent, so I feel safer putting words in his mouth.

With Kress in the past, like the piece when he joined the All Time Top 25 in HR, I stuck to the old "say the right things" path. "Crap" is something he would say in the 40s/50s in the press. Too worried about all those young kids across the country who look up to him. On something like Mo vs. Turk & Helbig, he'd never say anything on the record - it's not his problem.


John

You're absolutely right. Bad judgement on me to have Kress get involved in this. In fact, I think I'm going to edit that out of my post, simply because it's so out of place and inappropriate. I was just in a bit of a groove there, and needed some moral authority!

[metsgeek]

Talk about a can of worms that you guys opened up

Yeah, Cort Nagel's my ancestor. So's Jimmy Ditty. (As well as the Kahles, the Dunkels, Laszlo Szabo-Nagy....the list goes on ) You might be causing some bad blood within my family, though. Cort is Jimmy's brother-in-law. Of course, I've discussed an idea with Matt that may negate that relationship....but that's for the future.

I'm just gonna sit on the sidelines for now

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by jdw

Also to be clear - I don't want to be too hard on him. I spurred this on more than him.

I got a laugh out of the item that Matt wrote. Knowing Brady is into his second straight depressing year with the Yanks, made the comment about him checking this out and that it might put a smile on his face to see Turk taking it to Lutzke. That pretty much got it going, and I took it to another level by having Turk, Young, Schnozz and Helbig running in like the Four Horsemen to beat down Lutzke. Call having too much "fun".

I certainly don't want to have DY pissed off, or get frustrated with TWB. We need future GMs who enjoyed TWB as much time as he does, and are willing to invest time in it. If Enk takes the Expos and DY takes over the Dodgers, we'll have plenty of time for some Dodgers vs. Giants rivalry. I suspect we'll ask Matt to postpone TWB's equiv of the Juan Marichal incident until after DY takes over. :P


John

Exaclty. This was all completely meant in fun. I'm in no way pissed off. I got beat in the battle of the media, and I humbly submit. Of course, this error about Nagel has no actual impact on who won that little Kerfuffle between Lutske and Baker, but like in real life, seems my side has lost quite a bit of credibility.

I just though having an ex-teammate like Helbig say something so outrageous required something in return, of equal value. John basically called Morris the worst teammate ever. I mean, how many people in real life can you think of who had teammates rooting against him? Jack Parkman is all I got, and he ain't real. Not even Bonds is that hated in his own clubhouse.

But this was a weekend, with no sim. We need to do stuff to keep this busy. This won't be the last time! Hopefully next time I'll be a little more accurate though.

Battle well fought, John. I lay down my pen.

[Matt from TN]

No hard feeling here about anything written above, although Harry Finley's quote about Ditty & the Yanks was a bit disturbing.

IMO, you guys who've followed the league for a long time can write articles like this. If you want to delve deeply into someone's personality, it may be better to stick with non-ancestors. Best way to be sure of that is to check the ancestors list in my sig, or just ask me.

If someone here becomes the "resident expert" on a specific player (a la jdw with Kress or Jed Burke or Eddie "The Fixer" Whelan, or JT with the Phillies crew like Sard, Misisca, Bussman, Stuart, et al) that's fine. They can kind of "own" their personality to some degree, as far as having the creative license to quote them easily. Again, when in doubt, pm me.

And a full list of all players who served in WWII has always been online here: http://southernbaseball.com/twb/wwii.html

Best idea would be to use the FIND function & search for a name.

[DamnYankees]

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

No hard feeling here about anything written above, although Harry Finley's quote about Ditty & the Yanks was a bit disturbing.

Haha, yes it was. Honestly, would you like me to edit it? I think it's damn amusing, but I understand if you feel I went to far, especially with someone like Finley. I have no problems making it a bit more...tepid, if you like.