Pete Rose sycophants

[Westheim]

Same old, same old here. Always the same people doing victory laps.

[Questdog]

I got one thing to say and I am not looking for an argument, but would just like to point out that your lack of sympathy for Pete because it is clearly posted that no one should bet on baseball games is analogous to having no sympathy for drug addicts because everyone knows drugs kill and ruin lives.

I do not understand how people can be addicted to gambling or drugs as I have no personal issues with those things, but I am sympathetic enough to know that those things are a stumbling block for many, many people who know that they are bad for them, yet cannot stop.

And whether or not someone will openly admit to their problems should not preclude them from sympathy.


Personally, as I have have pointed out before, I could care less about the Hall of Fame and who they enshrine or don't. Great players are not in and crappy players are. Pete is and will always be an all-time Great regardless.

[psd]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I got one thing to say and I am not looking for an argument, but would just like to point out that your lack of sympathy for Pete because it is clearly posted that no one should bet on baseball games is analogous to having no sympathy for drug addicts because everyone knows drugs kill and ruin lives.

I do not understand how people can be addicted to gambling or drugs as I have no personal issues with those things, but I am sympathetic enough to know that those things are a stumbling block for many, many people who know that they are bad for them, yet cannot stop.

And whether or not someone will openly admit to their problems should not preclude them from sympathy.


Personally, as I have have pointed out before, I could care less about the Hall of Fame and who they enshrine or don't. Great players are not in and crappy players are. Pete is and will always be an all-time Great regardless.

Drugs are physically addicting. There are some serious withdrawal issues for drug addicts when they are trying to get clean. There is no such withdrawal for gamblers, so it is not the same thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, and sometimes more. But eventually it has to stop. he was given MORE than enough opportunities to change. He refused to do so.

You dont have to openly admit your problems, but you should seek help for them. The fact that he still does it today and doesnt see anything wrong with it is one of the biggest factors for me.

And the biggest issue for me is HE ACCEPTED the lifetime ban. If you make a deal and they live up to their end, like MLB did, they stopped the investigation, then live up to your end. Simple.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I got one thing to say and I am not looking for an argument, but would just like to point out that your lack of sympathy for Pete because it is clearly posted that no one should bet on baseball games is analogous to having no sympathy for drug addicts because everyone knows drugs kill and ruin lives.

What you call a lack of sympathy I call understanding people should reap what they sow. That's justice. Babies born junkies because of their cokehead mothers I sympathize with.

People who engage in dangerous activity despite frequent warnings not to do so don't deserve people coming in to fix the inevitable problems that come from their reckless behavior. That's why this world now is so full of spoiled adults. Because they were raised by parents who gave in to every impulse their child had. When you fear the consequences, you make better choices that account for the long term results. Pete Rose will do more for baseball as an exile than he would as a HOF. Because he now stands as a warning example to any MLB player who entertains the idea of gambling on the game.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I got one thing to say and I am not looking for an argument, but would just like to point out that your lack of sympathy for Pete because it is clearly posted that no one should bet on baseball games is analogous to having no sympathy for drug addicts because everyone knows drugs kill and ruin lives.

I do not understand how people can be addicted to gambling or drugs as I have no personal issues with those things, but I am sympathetic enough to know that those things are a stumbling block for many, many people who know that they are bad for them, yet cannot stop.

And whether or not someone will openly admit to their problems should not preclude them from sympathy.


Personally, as I have have pointed out before, I could care less about the Hall of Fame and who they enshrine or don't. Great players are not in and crappy players are. Pete is and will always be an all-time Great regardless.

Actually, I've been wondering whether Pete's next gambit might be to claim he has a unbeatable gambling addiction. And I don't think anyone would dismiss that possibility out of hand. I think most of us believe that he has a hard-wired addiction that manifests itself in the uncontrollable need to gamble. What I don't know is whether that would soften any hearts and get him reinstated.

The one way that claim could work against him is that he is a 75 year old man who should have recognized well before now that he has a problem and that he should seek help. I think he hasn't done so because, frankly, I don't think he believes he has a problem.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Same old, same old here. Always the same people doing victory laps.

Yep.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Actually, I've been wondering whether Pete's next gambit might be to claim he has a unbeatable gambling addiction. And I don't think anyone would dismiss that possibility out of hand. I think most of us believe that he has a hard-wired addiction that manifests itself in the uncontrollable need to gamble. What I don't know is whether that would soften any hearts and get him reinstated.

The one way that claim could work against him is that he is a 75 year old man who should have recognized well before now that he has a problem and that he should seek help. I think he hasn't done so because, frankly, I don't think he believes he has a problem.

Won't say it won't work. Will say it shouldn't work. People say pedophilia is an unbeatable addiction. Will that make people sympathize & allow them operate a day care? Is alcohol an unbeatable addiction? If so, are we going to let them drive beer trucks or work in liquor stores? Kleptomaniacs going to be allowed to operate the cash register unsupervised?

Whether people believe it is a sickness, or as I believe, a bad habit on steroids, if he can't control it, then he shouldn't be put in a position to influence the outcome of a game ever again.

[slic1149]

I wonder whether anyone would be arguing about the ban if it was happening to, say, Alvin Dark. Does anyone believe that the rules should be different, for some players, based on stats and popularity? If MLB is serious about keeping gambling out of baseball then they must enforce the lifetime ban, whether the player has Hall of Fame numbers or not. All the drugs in the world won't destroy baseball. OTOH, the day fans believe the games are fixed, the league is out of business.

[Jason]

He was a Hall of Famer on the field when he played.

That's why he would be elected.

To me, it's that simple. I'm not looking for a Hall of Great Human Beings.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

What you call a lack of sympathy I call understanding people should reap what they sow. That's justice. Babies born junkies because of their cokehead mothers I sympathize with.

People who engage in dangerous activity despite frequent warnings not to do so don't deserve people coming in to fix the inevitable problems that come from their reckless behavior. That's why this world now is so full of spoiled adults. Because they were raised by parents who gave in to every impulse their child had. When you fear the consequences, you make better choices that account for the long term results. Pete Rose will do more for baseball as an exile than he would as a HOF. Because he now stands as a warning example to any MLB player who entertains the idea of gambling on the game.

They don't call it addiction because it is easy to stop. Fear of the consequences does not stop addiction. Addicts do not fear addiction because the reward of the addiction is more important than the repercussions. That's why addicts steal and harm people they love to fuel their lifestyle. It is a terrible battle to fight. You definitely can sympathize with the addict's struggle without endorsing the behavior.

However, as it stands now Rose doesn't want to admit his past transgressions or acknowledge his current problem. He has had 30 years to seek help and treatment but he still continues to gamble. For that reason, I agree with the commissioners decision to uphold the ban. Rose could have been a redemption story and beacon of hope for those who struggle with addiction. But unfortunately, he has ben unable or unwilling to address his problems. In my opinion, as long as he's still gambling I find it very hard to find a reason to let him back in the game. If he is able to address his problems, I'd have no problem with MLB giving him a program to earn his way back into the game.

[Questdog]

For the record, the commissioner did not say that Pete should be kept out of the Hall of Fame. He said Pete should not be allowed to work in MLB and for that reason the suspension remains in effect. He even mentioned that he thought the criteria for making the Hall of Fame and working for MLB should not be the same.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Questdog

For the record, the commissioner did not say that Pete should be kept out of the Hall of Fame. He said Pete should not be allowed to work in MLB and for that reason the suspension remains in effect. He even mentioned that he thought the criteria for making the Hall of Fame and working for MLB should not be the same.

And that's been my position for some time. If suspected drug usage can keep deserving players out then known gambling activities should too. It's the HoF that needs fixing big time.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

They don't call it addiction because it is easy to stop. Fear of the consequences does not stop addiction. Addicts do not fear addiction because the reward of the addiction is more important than the repercussions. That's why addicts steal and harm people they love to fuel their lifestyle. It is a terrible battle to fight. You definitely can sympathize with the addict's struggle without endorsing the behavior.

I can sympathize when they have true regret. I have zero sympathy when they try to escape the pre-known consequences. The choice was made. Live with it.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

You no doubt have ppl on your side. But you are also no doubt the general for your troops. You've got 1 out of every 5 posts in this 300 page thread. Looking back, it looks like you are playing whack-a-mole every time a post pops up w/ an anti-Rose opinion. As if the last opinion posted wins.

Hey General, who's playing whack-a-mole now?

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Hey General, who's playing whack-a-mole now?

Not going to be put on defensive by someone with a personal axe to grind. You can find another playmate for your childish, immature games.


Moving on..............

[Orcin]

Now that we have that out of the way, here's the crux of the problem...

Quoted from MLB.com:

The all-time hits leader, 74, was placed on the permanently ineligible list for violating Major League Baseball's strict rule against betting on baseball on Aug. 23, 1989. Subsequently, the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum declared that all players on that list would also be ineligible for election.


The bolded sentence is the problem. There is no reason for this act by the HOF Board. It is stupid and hypocritical to keep the all-time leader in hits out of the Hall of Fame for reasons related to his behavior. He can't degrade the Hall of Fame any further than Ty Cobb already has. Manfred does not have to lift the ban to rectify this moronic position. The HOF Board can do it anytime.

[swampdragon]

Manfred did the only thing he could do. No way you want Rose in locker rooms or with a team in an official capacity with his gambling history and current gambling habit.

If you let Rose on a Hall of Fame ballot, he wouldn't come close to getting in. Sometime after he's gone, a Veterans Committee will elect him, and his plaque will be in the HOF. As much as I liked watching him play, I think I'm OK with that.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Sometime after he's gone, a Veterans Committee will elect him, and his plaque will be in the HOF.

Hey it worked for Shoeless Joe...

[swoboda]

Sadly Pete's life story has become the equivalent of a modern day Greek tragedy.
He clearly needs the Deus Machina to descend from above the stage and deliver him to accepting the life he has lived.
However none of that should keep him out of the HOF
An all-time great goes into the Hall
Period.

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by swoboda

Sadly Pete's life story has become the equivalent of a modern day Greek tragedy.
He clearly needs the Deus Machina to descend from above the stage and deliver him to accepting the life he has lived.
However none of that should keep him out of the HOF
An all-time great goes into the Hall
Period.

I understand your point. I just believe that the rules of MLB should be the same for great, good, mediocre, and lousy players. MLB players and managers who bet on games are the biggest dangers to the integrity of the game. Pete Rose bet on games. We only have his word, as a confirmed liar, that he never threw a game. His actions since he was banned have not been the slightest bit contrite, in fact he has done all he could to denigrate the very institution he wants to be accepted into.

My answer to your contention that an all time great goes into the hall is that he is already there. Rose's contributions to the game are celebrated. His picture and memorabilia are there as well. He gambled on games, got caught, and then lied about it. The actual hall containing the plaques is the closest thing baseball has to a holy place. Based on his actions I don't believe Pete Rose's plaque should ever be there.