BTS: Frequently Asked Questions

[PSUColonel]

I propose a baseball cap over a helmet..helmets will look stupid

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I propose a baseball cap over a helmet..helmets will look stupid

Yeah, I'd agree. Heck, look at the actual NFL, where as soon as a team wins the conference championship or Super Bowl the players have ball caps to wear proclaiming their club as the champion.

[Cole]

Francis,

Your previous blog on "Football GM" was really enlightening and well written. Do you think you might be able to do up a similar weekly/bi-weekly or even monthly blog now under OOTPD, to highlight a specific aspect of the game/development?

I think it would really help to let hype continue and build from here on until the release should such information be periodically unveiled.

[Francis Cole]

Hi,

Further on the development I'd certainly like to do something like the blog.

At the moment though all the changes are in the underlying code so what you actually see on the screen doesn't really change that much from week to week.


Hopefully in a few months or so though I'll be able to do something like it

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

They can't, because the licensed version of FaceGen they have for BTS (and OOTP and FHM) doesn't support hair (that costs quite a bit extra). So they have to have some sort of headgear on the player. Which means it's either a baseball cap or a helmet.

OOTP already adds the caps and facial hair to the FaceGen faces, why not just have BTS add hair instead of a hat? I'd rather have a limited number of hairstyles than helmets.

[killershrew]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Yeah, I'd agree. Heck, look at the actual NFL, where as soon as a team wins the conference championship or Super Bowl the players have ball caps to wear proclaiming their club as the champion.

That could be a pretty cool feature. Players could wear a cap that represents their biggest or most recent achievement. Caps could read "Pro Bowl 2015" or "NFC South Champions" like real teams wear these days

[Cole]

If hats are the only option available and just hair isn't possible, I think another benefit of the hats would be that it would be another place for the talented work of modders to be displayed. The logos aren't normally seen prominently on football jerseys (or at least on the parts that would be shown in a Facegen scan) so we would get to see the team logo in more places too.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by ripwalk

If hats are the only option available and just hair isn't possible, I think another benefit of the hats would be that it would be another place for the talented work of modders to be displayed. The logos aren't normally seen prominently on football jerseys (or at least on the parts that would be shown in a Facegen scan) so we would get to see the team logo in more places too.

what about action shots with helmets? That too would be difficult I guess.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

what about action shots with helmets? That too would be difficult I guess.

Action shots aren't possible for facegen

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

OOTP already adds the caps and facial hair to the FaceGen faces, why not just have BTS add hair instead of a hat? I'd rather have a limited number of hairstyles than helmets.

There are a few reasons, so far as I know.

First the hair files for facegen are huge! It's something like 650mb for only 15-20 different styles. Second, they kind of look bad. Third, they're rather expensive, at around $1000.

[eriqjaffe]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

There are a few reasons, so far as I know.

First the hair files for facegen are huge! It's something like 650mb for only 15-20 different styles. Second, they kind of look bad. Third, they're rather expensive, at around $1000.

I wasn't thinking of having FaceGen generate the hair , I was thinking something more along the lines of bobble's OOTP facial har mod - as the player image is created from the FaceGen data, have BTSoverlay a "hair" image on top of it, the same way OOTP does for caps.

[goalieump413]

Francis,
When you do reach the next dev milestone, please let us know the blog link so we can all get amped up.

But another question: There's been a lot of discussion and questions (myself included) about the personalities of the coaches and schemes they bring in. But beyond that, I have a question about the people in the game overall: Is the game being built so that older, retired players can remain in the game and become coaches?

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

I wasn't thinking of having FaceGen generate the hair , I was thinking something more along the lines of bobble's OOTP facial har mod - as the player image is created from the FaceGen data, have BTSoverlay a "hair" image on top of it, the same way OOTP does for caps.

I've wondered about this for some time with OOTP. I'm sure I don't fully understand the technical obstacles involved, but the only explanations I recall seeing as to why this isn't feasible is that it would require every player/coach to be positioned exactly the same way within the frame, presumably facing directly forward, and that this wouldn't look realistic.

(Is this accurate or am I oversimplifying here? If anyone out there knows, please correct me if I'm mistaken and clarify.)

Personally, assuming this IS indeed the case, I would be perfectly fine with it if it meant players having hair. To me, the angle they're facing is much less important in terms of realism than whether or not they have hair.

This is especially true in the NFL as compared to MLB. In baseball, you only have a relatively small number of players with long hair (think Manny Ramirez, Andrew McCutchen, Tim Lincecum a few years back), but there are literally thousands of football players who sport long hair and/or dreads. It doesn't matter so much when you see a guy who has short hair IRL with a bald head in his Facegen likeness. But how weird is a Troy Polamalu, Steven Jackson, Larry Fitzgerald, or Clay Matthews going to look in their FG pic with NO HAIR?

Seriously, considering how much more of an issue hair will be in BTS, given both the abundance of players with long hair and the lack of helmets, maybe it's time OOTPD as a company bites the bullet and springs for a full Facegen license so hair can be added.

Just sayin'.

[Muzamba]

Ok, first of all, as a longtime OOTP beta tester and member of the OOTPD family for the past decade and change (albeit generally absent for the past year ) I'd like to personally welcome you and thank you for bringing your concept for an American football game to OOTPD.

Having assumed such a game would never be part of OOTPD's vision, I began helping another developer work on a similar game a few years ago. Most of my work involved constructing databases for the game and the basic framework for a storyline engine. But due to time limitations on my part (not the least of which involved my work on OOTP's world and schools databases and storylines), I was never able to fully implement the work I put into it (although many of my ideas were subsequently implemented) and I gradually stopped working on it altogether. Unfortunately, work on the game appears to have since crawled to a standstill and it seems increasingly likely that it may never realize its full potential.

Now, with the announcement of BTS, my loyalties are being somewhat tested. While I feel like I left the other guy hanging a bit, I believe - based on OOTPD's track record - that BTS has a much better chance at achieving the level of realism and immersiveness I've come to expect from a sports simulation. Therefore, I feel like my time would be better spent offering my services here. Still, I'd feel even better about switching my allegiances if I'm confident that we share the same ambitions for your game.

So here are some questions/comments I have regarding BTS. I know a few have been asked already, but I didn't notice responses to them. (My apologies if any were already addressed earlier in this thread or elsewhere.)

1. Will there be weekly and postseason awards handed out? (And can I safely assume that if there will be, it will be the same hardware that the NFL awards its players and coaches?)

2. You mentioned the HOF game, but will there be an actual fully-functioning Hall of Fame?

3. How will the Pro Bowl be handled, especially in terms of format? Even though you've stated that you want the first incarnation of BTS to mirror the NFL as closely as possible, I can't see a Pro Bowl that pits Former Player A's fantasy-drafted team against Former Player B's fantasy-drafted team. So will you be reverting back to the old NFC vs. AFC format? (I hope! )

4. Also, will popularity, or "fan favoritism", be a factor in determining who gets selected to play in the game or will that be entirely based on stats?

5. I already addressed this in a separate thread (so feel free to ignore this one if you already responded over there), but how will personalities be depicted in BTS? Will there be a way to distinguish troublemakers, both on and off the field?

6. Will players have free agent preferences? (For instance, salary, contract length, opportunity to start, playing for a winning team, loyalty to their current team, playing close to their hometown, playing in a large market, etc.)

7. I realize you said that you only planned on including the HC, OC, and DC in the first version. However, I'm wondering whether it might also be important to include a Special Teams Coordinator, as that part of the game is separate from the offense or defense.

8. As for the rest of the coaching staff, or the second-tier assistances (QB coach, RB coach, OL coach, etc.), I understand not wanting to include them in BTS v1, at least as positions with specific roles within the game. However, I wonder if you might consider at least listing them as names within the game, with basic offensive/defensive/ST ratings, primarily in order to provide a deeper pool of potential coaching candidates. In other words, even though their presence on a team's coaching staff may not have any direct effect on the team's play, they may possess ratings that make them an attractive candidate for a head coaching job in the subsequent offseason. To me, this would be preferential to simply having a list of "free agent" coaching candidates. (However, I would like to see the pool of candidates also include names of "college coaches" and perhaps a few names that basically appear out of nowhere that could be said to represent former coaches that have "taken some time off and are now open to accepting a new job if the price/situation is right.")

9. Knowing that there will not be a fully-developed college system until a later edition of BTS, I would suggest utilizing a modified version of the schools db that OOTP uses. I actually created this db file for Markus several years ago and am proud to say it has been used rather effectively as a means to realistically assign colleges (and high schools) to newly-generated fictional players that appear in leagues without functioning feeder leagues. In fact, I would happily volunteer to build a similar db for BTS that includes football-playing schools, if you would consider implementing such a db in v1.

10. How closely will the storyline engine for BTS be modelled after OOTP's? As I mentioned earlier, this is another aspect of OOTP that I've been extensivey involved in, having written 100+ storyline articles that currently appear in the game. However, I strongly believe there is plenty of room for improvement when it comes to this part of the game. Obviously, many of the stories will need to be modified to make them more realistic within the context of a football-centric universe, but if the plan is to merely integrate the existing system into BTS, this would present a terrific opportunity to "piggyback" off of what's already there and add some new features and functions that I feel would improve the system exponentially. (And as with everything I've mentioned so far, I'd be happy to share my ideas with you in greater detail, if you're interested.)

I suppose I'll stop here for now, although I'm certain to have MANY additional thoughts, queries, and requests in the coming weeks and months. (I'm notorious in this regard, as Markus and Andreas can undoubtedly attest to. )

I'll wrap up this post with one final thought for now...

For those who are trying to temper expectations for the first release of BTS, I can appreciate your not wanting to put too much pressure on Francis. And I agree entirely that we should not be disappointed if BTS isn't 100% perfect right out of the gate. Nevertheless, I think we may be lowering the bar a bit too much by preemptively comparing BTS1 to OOTP1. Of course, I am by no means disparaging OOTP1. I'm simply pointing out that while OOTP was basically built from scratch, Francis has the benefit of an extremely comprehensive existing foundation off of which to build BTS that Markus didn't have back in 1998. Because Francis has roughly 15 years worth of coding to build off of, he has the luxury of focusing more of his attention on actually improving upon what Markus has done over the years, as opposed to being bogged down with the same time-consuming minutia that Markus had no choice but to deal with early on in OOTP's development.

So while I think it's inevitable that we'll have to endure a few growing pains with BTS, I have every confidence from what I've seen and read so far - and from knowing how good of a product OOTP is - that Francis will deliver a game that will be light years ahead of anything we've seen from an American football sim before.

So good luck, Francis, and I look forward to watching the BTS experience unfold over the next year and beyond.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

3. How will the Pro Bowl be handled, especially in terms of format? Even though you've stated that you want the first incarnation of BTS to mirror the NFL as closely as possible, I can't see a Pro Bowl that pits Former Player A's fantasy-drafted team against Former Player B's fantasy-drafted team. So will you be reverting back to the old NFC vs. AFC format? (I hope! )

Speaking of 'special' games, there was the Chicago College All-Star Game which was a preseason game that featured the prior year's NFL champion against an All-Star squad of college players (including NFL draftees). This game ran from 1934 through 1976 (except for 1974; no game was played that year). There was also the Playoff Bowl which ran during the 1960-69 seasons and featured the second-place clubs in each division (1960-66) or the conference championship runners-up (1967-69).

Might be interesting to be able to recreate these sorts of 'special' games at some point...

[Orioles1966]

They also played doubleheaders in Cleveland during the pre-season(mostly in the 1960s).

[Francis Cole]

Originally Posted by goalieump413

Is the game being built so that older, retired players can remain in the game and become coaches?

I do want all people to remain in the game, but I'll have to see how possible that is because storing all these players will increase the save game size etc.

[Francis Cole]

Originally Posted by Muzamba

I recall seeing as to why this isn't feasible is that it would require every player/coach to be positioned exactly the same way within the frame, presumably facing directly forward, and that this wouldn't look realistic.

Yes, basically it's because the faces are 3D (you can view the portrait from different angles in OOTP).

Also, because the Face is supplied by FaceGen but the hair isn't (not a lot anyway), we'd need a lot of time with artists to design lots and lots of hairstyles. (look at FM for example to see how hard it is).

[Francis Cole]

Hi Muzamba.

A lot of questions!

Originally Posted by Muzamba

1. Will there be weekly and postseason awards handed out? (And can I safely assume that if there will be, it will be the same hardware that the NFL awards its players and coaches?)

That's the plan, though they may have to be named differently things for copyright reasons. I also don't know if for V1 we'll have the weekly awards for best TD etc.

2. You mentioned the HOF game, but will there be an actual fully-functioning Hall of Fame?

I think so, unless there is something I'm not understanding. Would OOTP be counted as having a fully functional HOF?

3. How will the Pro Bowl be handled, especially in terms of format? Even though you've stated that you want the first incarnation of BTS to mirror the NFL as closely as possible, I can't see a Pro Bowl that pits Former Player A's fantasy-drafted team against Former Player B's fantasy-drafted team

We won't be able to name the ex-players who draft the teams (I don't think?), but I see no reason why the computer couldn't draft the two teams and say it's done by two unnamed ex-players.

4. Also, will popularity, or "fan favoritism", be a factor in determining who gets selected to play in the game or will that be entirely based on stats?

The whole local/national popularity thing will probably be redesigned so TBD.

5. I already addressed this in a separate thread (so feel free to ignore this one if you already responded over there), but how will personalities be depicted in BTS? Will there be a way to distinguish troublemakers, both on and off the field?

Answered on this page above I think (a bit anyway!)

6. Will players have free agent preferences? (For instance, salary, contract length, opportunity to start, playing for a winning team, loyalty to their current team, playing close to their hometown, playing in a large market, etc.)

The whole contract thing will have to be redone, as contracts are so different in Football. For example, Total contract $ is totally misleading and is basically only of use to the media, where as in Baseball it seems it's the most important thing.

7+8. I realize you said that you only planned on including the HC, OC, and DC in the first version. However, I'm wondering whether it might also be important to include a Special Teams Coordinator, as that part of the game is separate from the offense or defense.

We said HC/OC/DC as that is all we can guarantee now, however I'd like to hope (so no promises) we'll have positional coaches in as well.

9. Knowing that there will not be a fully-developed college system until a later edition of BTS, I would suggest utilizing a modified version of the schools db that OOTP uses.

I have not seen it yet so I can't comment if we'll use it or not
We probably won't as we will need a lot of information which wouldn't be in it (like the HC of the team, the Div the college plays in etc etc).
In fact the whole DB research process is a lot different to OOTP.
PM me if you would like to help with the research.

10. How closely will the storyline engine for BTS be modelled after OOTP's?

Quite closely I think, though all the stories will have to be re-done obviously. There's also a certain style to narrative in the stories which personally I'm not too keen on at all, but maybe that's just me!


Thanks,
Francis

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Francis Cole

Hi Muzamba.

A lot of questions!

That's me, alright! Just ask Markus or Andreas.

That's the plan, though they may have to be named differently things for copyright reasons. I also don't know if for V1 we'll have the weekly awards for best TD etc.

Yeah, when I referred to weekly awards, I basically just meant Offensive/Defensive Player of the Week, or something along those lines. Nothing too in-depth, especially for now.

I think so, unless there is something I'm not understanding. Would OOTP be counted as having a fully functional HOF?

Right. I would consider OOTP's HOF to be "fully-functioning". Not that there isn't plenty of room for improvement, though. But I'd be happy to see something like OOTP's version in BTS1.

We won't be able to name the ex-players who draft the teams (I don't think?), but I see no reason why the computer couldn't draft the two teams and say it's done by two unnamed ex-players.

I wouldn't think so, especially considering they will probably have different "coaches" each year. I mean, I suppose you could have the game randomly choose names of 2 Hall of Fame players and name the teams after them, if you wanted to mirror the current NFL closely enough, but I seriously doubt the average user would mind using the old NFC/AFC format. (Besides, I personally think a "conference vs. conference" format lends itself better to a game like this than it does even in real life.)

The whole local/national popularity thing will probably be redesigned so TBD.

Understandable. I think it has limited functionality in OOTP (I believe it only affects fan interest when a popular player is acquired/traded away, at the moment.) I do recall this existing in FOF, although it was a simple "fan favorite" tag, as opposed to a sliding scale of popularity. Regardless, I think a single popularity rating (perhaps with just a few levels, like "fan favorite", "popular", "neutral", or "unpopular", would be sufficient for use in BTS.

Answered on this page above I think (a bit anyway!)

I'm sorry, were you referring to the other "Personalities" thread? If this topic was addressed in THIS thread, I seem to have overlooked it or simply can't find your response. Either way, I think you did address it effectively enough in the other thread.

The whole contract thing will have to be redone, as contracts are so different in Football. For example, Total contract $ is totally misleading and is basically only of use to the media, where as in Baseball it seems it's the most important thing.

True, although I think for the average fan, it's generally easier to wrap one's head around a player's per year average salary, even though - as you said - that rarely paints an accurate picture, even in baseball.

Regardless, I do hope free agent preferences are included, even if they are more generalized than IRL. (For instance, factors like job security and the ability to play close to home should be more important to older players than younger players.)

We said HC/OC/DC as that is all we can guarantee now, however I'd like to hope (so no promises) we'll have positional coaches in as well.

Don't get me wrong. I'll be happy with whatever makes it in, especially for the first release. I was just suggesting that there might be a way to include these coaches in the game, even if only in name, if giving them full functionality would be too problematic for BTS1.

I have not seen it yet so I can't comment if we'll use it or not
We probably won't as we will need a lot of information which wouldn't be in it (like the HC of the team, the Div the college plays in etc etc).
In fact the whole DB research process is a lot different to OOTP.
PM me if you would like to help with the research.

I'll PM you, probably later tonight (or early tomorrow your time) as I'm definitely interested in seeing how the db might be implemented. FWIW, the process of building the college db for OOTP didn't take all that long and wasn't all that complicated... and trust me, it's a lot harder to find info on college baseball than it is college football. Of course, there is a significant amount of overlap between the list of baseball and football schools, and for those colleges that are already in the OOTP db, I've already included their associations and conferences. (I actually wanted to include a few extra fields that Markus deemed unnecessary, like identifiers for junior colleges, as well as military academies and certain religious schools that require missionary services, both of which would result in players that are initially included in the draft not being eligible to actually PLAY for the drafting team for a year or two. So I have no problem including additional data, if it would be useful.)

But yeah, I'll absolutely PM you later and we can go over the existing db and see what you think.

Quite closely I think, though all the stories will have to be re-done obviously. There's also a certain style to narrative in the stories which personally I'm not too keen on at all, but maybe that's just me!

Well, I'm not sure if we have issues with the exact same aspects of the storyline engine here, but I have some opinions as to how the narratives and the engine itself could be improved, so we should definitely compare notes on this subject.

Thanks,
Francis

And thank YOU! So far, I'm thoroughly impressed with how much depth you're planning on including in BTS and feel very good about the future direction of the game, so I would absolutely like to be a part of it.

I'll be in touch soon and will continue to post questions and ideas as I think of them and offer feedback whenever it's requested.