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#301 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
![]() There are insinuations and predispositions behind our words. However, I will apologize, since instead of understanding the point or general gist of my idea, you seem to have decided to single out a few specific words and go on a tangent that doesn't in any way actually address my concerns. I suppose I will redact my statement and pick my words more carefully, and I am sorry if my use of supposedly strong words has upset you. ![]() I'm very lighthearted, and while I tried to make use of smiles to make sure that that was clear, I will state it outright and I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. Obviously no one has directly "attacked" the WTHM guys, it was just an off-the-cuff and in-jest comment that I thought might be helpful for a preemptive warning against a possible onslaught of "OMG DONT REGEN NATIONALITIES" and the possible emotions some posters might attach to their "suggestion." ![]() But how do you feel about that post, outside of the word "attacked," which I will edit? ![]() I deliberately didn't use quotes or names because I wanted to make a broad, blanketed "let's not be guilty of this, guys," statement. Regarding "complaining" and "insulting:" The statement "if it was such a good game, why is it defunct?" was spoken by someone who had said they never even played the game. Perhaps it was not his intention -- but it certainly seems snide to me. I don't know if he intended it (and I would totally accept it as incidental if he said so), but the implication there is clearly: If the game was good, it wouldn't be defunct. Which would be a confusing and baseless accusation from someone who hasn't even played the game. Surely now you understand how I could have felt someone was being unnecessarily insulting of EHM post-mortem. ![]() I would like to know how you feel about what I've actually said. The extract of my post would be essentially that making a game better than EHM is a good goal for the WTHM team and mentioning things that EHM (and any other hockey manager) does well or poorly should actually be encouraged. My point wasn't to stop people's opinions at all. I'm actually confused as to why you think that is the case, and you went on an opinion tangent. My point is that we need to embrace more critique, more opinions, and more suggestions! The more the merrier, and if it's a suggestion coming from EHM, sites like Hat Trick or any of the fly-by-night sims that have existed over the years, I don't see any reason to hold them back. I'm not a WTHM developer, so maybe one of them could shed light on an assumption I make... but I think it'd be better as a developer to happen accross a potentially vital suggestion earlier rather then when things are already more heavily underway and features lists come out. With "I'd really like to see what is in store for features, etc, and then be able to say - How about adding this or tweaking that," it seems like you're saying we shouldn't make suggestions until we have an official list of WTHM features released, and I guess I just really don't see the necessity of that. I get the impression people are complaining. You get the impression that people are saying "base this on EHM." Pretty sure we're both free to express what those impressions are. I just haven't seen anything that really supports your impression, which is one of the reasons I made my post. I see suggestions about what a similar game did well or poorly. And I was actually going to go through and document and chart all these suggestions relating to different gaming aspects because I'm a dork and these are the kinds of things I do. I was also going to go to others with extensive hockey gaming and hockey managing experience and see what things they could think of. Of course, if you don't think suggestions are warranted until we know "what's in store for features," I guess I could somehow imagine how you don't want EHM referred to yet...? As for me: I am hopeful and enthusiastic about what a new hockey manager game can bring, and I am encouraged by the developers' interaction with the community and I am confident that they will build off of and improve what has been done before while adding their own improvements, depth, and unique spin on the game. =] That's why I just happen to think the suggestions are important, but we can certainly agree to disagree if you'd like! |
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#302 |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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#303 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
That doesn't make much sense to me, and it seems odd that, of all the templates for generating new players, you would choose that one -- especially when a far superior one exists right under your noses. It's like going to an all-you-can-eat buffet and saying "no, I think I'll just stick with the crackers, thanks." Now, let me hasten to add that I'm not questioning this because it's something borrowed from EHM, I'm questioning it because it seems like a fairly bad idea that just happens to have been borrowed from EHM. Like I said before, I've never played EHM, and what I know about the game is based primarily on what I've read here. It sounds like there were a lot of good things in it, and those are the things that should be incorporated into the WTHM game. I'm just saying that, in this case, this doesn't sound like one of those good things. |
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#304 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
That being said, I'm also familiar with games that people have said are great and that turn out to be not-so-great. In my experience, the number of games that have disappeared because of game-issues is greater than the number of games that have disappeared because of non-game-issues. From a purely economic perspective, if EHM were truly a great game that was doomed by bad marketing, it would make a lot more sense for someone to buy the rights to EHM and market it correctly rather than develop an entirely new game. The fact that nobody seems interested in doing that suggests to me that at least some of the factors that doomed the game weren't marketing-related. If you think that's insulting to EHM, so be it. I don't mean to insult it, and I'm not sure why you'd take it personally even if I did, but that's not my problem. My only interest is seeing that the WTHM game turns out to be the best possible hockey simulation on the market. |
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#305 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
You keep saying "league" and "NHL" but Seb is talking about the entire player database. Maybe I can help a bit with understanding: Let's say start date is 2012. There are 690 actual NHLers (and an absolute maximum of 2400 players owned by or playing for an NHL team, 1700+ of whom will be in the AHL, KHL, Elitserin, etc. So there's 690 guys in "The League" (if you are concerned with NHL), and maybe upwards of 20000 in the actual world-wide database of all leagues. A player retires (out of 20000) and a new on is "born" into that 20000, and the new player just borrows the nationality and position of the retiree, nothing more. Not skillset, not potential, not ability, not weight, not eye color. So if you have 6 starting Russian goalies in year 1, you can have 15 in year 30. Or absolutely none. They are not recycled into the 690 players in the league, they are "recycled" (if you would even really call it that) into the 20000+ players of the entire database, and then, their skill level is determined entirely independently of the player who retired. Georges Laraque could retire and his replacement could wind up being another Sidney Crosby. Their skills or playing styles are not linked.
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#306 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
Just because I think it can be perceived as an insult, doesn't mean I am taking it personally -- that's all. ![]() That said, I'm relieved and appreciative that you responded and that your intent wasn't what it seemed like. That's good. But yes, as it's been mentioned: Those who worked on EHM have said the people and game have been some of the best they've ever worked on or worked with. True users of the game are very loyal and appreciative of it, and I haven't ever heard someone seriously dislike the game once they played a few seasons and understood the interface and depth. It totally has flaws, as all games do, but further development would have taken (many of) those out. It's also relatively difficult to customize and modify, but we do manage, and there are entire communities dedicated to doing new and fresh things with the game despite some of its flaws or weaknesses. EHM was started by Risto Remes 10+ years ago and was a freeware game. It was simple, not that in-depth, but pretty customizable. He worked on it and improved it and eventually SI games swooped in and picked it up. They released three versions but never really marketed the game (I never once saw a commercial or advertisement for it) and they let the popularity of the game in Risto's home region of Sweden carry the sales for a while. That didn't really suffice and while SI games (at some point) made a pathetic claim about piracy being what took their game down, it was actually the absolute lack of marketing. Additionally: if there are no reviews or buzz about a hockey game, especially in northern US and Canada, how could SI games have hoped to have their game sell there? Of course it wound up pirated. Word of mouth works (I got 50+ people to buy the damn thing) but a real company can't rely on that and then be surprised when they fail... I don't know how rights work. I don't know if someone can just buy the rights to EHM if they are owned by SI games and the original owner of EHM is still employed by SI games. It's a franchise that was fiercely popular among those who played it, you just had to actually locate someone that played it to find that out. I'm not sure companies look to franchises that lost money as a good investment, but I could be wrong. Regardless, I think I prefer to let EHM rest in peace and have a new game develop. =] |
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#307 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,725
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Quote:
That's how I understand it too. It just appears that we have differing views on whether that's a good system or not. |
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#308 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
color me stupid and call me a newb
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#309 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In The Moment
Posts: 14,490
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Quote:
If you think a question such as "If it was such a great game why did it go defunct" is insulting, snide, complaining, or attacking, then maybe you need to work on the comprehensions skills a little more? (No insult intended by my comment). He asked a legitimate question. He never played the game before. He said that up front. He wanted to know what happened to it. A very valid question. As for your suggestions/ideas, I have been reading them and look forward to reading more. It's obvious you're a big hockey fan like myself. That's a good thing. Please keep the suggestions coming, the more the better as far as I'm concerned. Now can we please move on to discussing WTHM or whatever it will be called? |
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#310 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
Since I do enjoy a good-natured back-and-forth I hope you won't mind.. ![]() And yes, we're hockey fans... so yay! But I'm actually a Psycholinguist. My comprehension skills don't need much more work, and I think (hope) I've been clear in announcing that I acknowledge that I'm new, and I qualified my preemptive hypothesis that it could have been an insult by noting that I don't know you all and if he didn't intend it as such, I would totally accept that. Intent is 90% of morality, especially verbal. Just because he said something that could be interpreted by a newcomer as implicitly insulting doesn't mean that's what he intended at all -- this lies in the nature of online communities and the shortcomings of purely text-based communication. Additionally, I didn't call anyone an insulter, complainer, or an attacker. Those are person-based descriptors and I'm pretty sure (though possibly mistaken) that I only used word-based descriptors to comment on the words chosen by us and our peers. Since my exposure to this community and those that compose it has been terribly short, it would be not only rash, but illogical and irrational for me to jump to any conclusions or use person-based descriptors on a populace I'm relatively unfamiliar with. ![]() You may not care for the words I've used, but I've been pretty apologetic regarding what confusing they could have caused. I'll probably be around a while, so I will need to see if this community as a whole shapes up as interesting as it seems at the moment -- never have I seen a forum where voicing that someone's words may have been an implicit insult was a cause for such apology! But I would love to fit into the societal standards of this community and not make "noise" so that I may positively contribute, so I shall conform. ![]() ((aside from being lighthearted, I'm also admittedly and regrettably long-winded, so, apologies all-around)) If you don't care for the words I used, that's okay. I don't care for you contorting those words into me somehow labeling people. I wouldn't do that. But I understand your approach if you thought it was necessary to defend people, especially those you know or appreciate, from the slander of some stupid newb. I assure you though, just as I interpreted Joe's comment as an implicit insult, you seem to have taken mine as critical, labeling, or insulting in a manner as well. And that's not how they were intended, so I'm sorry you took them as such! And bravo for standing up for your peers. Since Joe's the one who said the defunct thing, I believe you can see that he and I have already discussed it and appear to be just fine. ![]() Now, how do you feel about maintaining nationalities and their corresponding positions in-game? Personally, taking what Joe has said into account, I feel like I lean more towards his point of view, though it isn't an area of terrific concern for me. Last edited by fireholder; 11-15-2011 at 01:30 PM. |
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#311 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In The Moment
Posts: 14,490
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Quote:
Or, to be more direct - will we have the ability to create and edit players to our liking? Last edited by Bluenoser; 11-15-2011 at 01:34 PM. |
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#312 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,983
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Yes , it will be possible to edit the database.
Last edited by Malte Schwarz; 11-15-2011 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Clarification |
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#313 |
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All Star Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,071
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Well, I suppose it wouldn't be an OOTPD forum without at least some petty bickering and drama.
A few quick clarifications from the last group of posts, since semantics appear to be critical to some at this point: Risto Remes, creator of EHM, hails from Finland, not Sweden. Sports Interactive 'swooped in' and grabbed Riz, but not the game. SI's initial offering of EHM shared nothing, except the name, with the freeware. It has officially been stated by Riz, Graeme Kelly, and others at SI that there's never been any consideration given to selling or releasing the game code to EHM in any way, because the game shares a fair amount of proprietary code from the Champ Man series. This is why EHM and its code likely will never be released into the public domain. Just wanted to correct some minor pieces of mis-information as I read through your back-and-forth. Last edited by Smetana; 11-15-2011 at 02:14 PM. |
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#314 | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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Quote:
![]() and i know that they "swooped" the name and riz, but isn't it kind of the same thing? the ehm we know can't be bought because of the code issue anyway, and nowadays freeware ehm (as awesome as it was) wouldn't stand on its own against other hockey simulators anyway. all in all you're obviously right, as riz and his following was what they wanted. ![]() dear god i still can't believe i put sweden. :P We have a trophy named after him! ...actually, Jan, we have a trophy named after you, too.
Last edited by fireholder; 11-15-2011 at 03:34 PM. |
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#315 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Up There
Posts: 15,642
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."
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#316 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 8,608
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#317 |
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All Star Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,071
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#318 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In The Moment
Posts: 14,490
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Quote:
There won't be a built in editor? |
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#319 |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 175
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![]() oh yeaaaah actually, this may be odd but i've always wondered if i had accurate descriptions for the EHM crew in the awards we've named after them... does it seem right to you? ![]() ISHL Season-End Awards |
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#320 | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,983
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Quote:
I'm not entirely sure about this, we have not made a final decision yet. |
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