Interesting Test (concerning Barry Bonds and the Giants) - Page 15

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

I'd suggest that your eyes were confounded by a powerful illusion. Adjusted for context, Koufax and Gibson are great pitchers, but there were better before, and have been since.

Maybe. But I've seen a ton of pitchers and I've never seen anyone like Bob Gibson. Tough, great pitcher, and 100% competitor 24/7.

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Maybe. But I've seen a ton of pitchers and I've never seen anyone like Bob Gibson. Tough, great pitcher, and 100% competitor 24/7.

Absolutely.

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

I think if you'd seen Randy Johnson when you were 5, 10, or 15 (I dunno how old you are), you'd be saying the same thing about him. Just human nature.

I saw Gibson pitch when I was taller than he was - he wasn't that big, only like 6' 1" or so, maybe 6' 2" and I was taller than that early in high school. He wasn't tough because of his size - he was tough because he was tough.

I don't think Randy Johnson is intimidating. His fastball, yes, but him? No. But Gibson was flat nasty. Any of you remember Jim Ray Hart? Southern boy, played third base and outfield for the Giants back in the sixties and seventies? He comes up to bat against Gibson in like only his second or third at-bat ever, and Gibson doesn't like what Hart's doing in the box and BOOM - Hart's on the ground, writhing with a broken collarbone.

DamnYankees · 03-26-2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Maybe. But I've seen a ton of pitchers and I've never seen anyone like Bob Gibson. Tough, great pitcher, and 100% competitor 24/7.

I don't think you'll find many people who are going to argue Bob Gibson was anything but a unique, amazing player.

DamnYankees · 03-26-2005, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I saw Gibson pitch when I was taller than he was - he wasn't that big, only like 6' 1" or so, maybe 6' 2" and I was taller than that early in high school. He wasn't tough because of his size - he was tough because he was tough.

I don't think Randy Johnson is intimidating. His fastball, yes, but him? No. But Gibson was flat nasty. Any of you remember Jim Ray Hart? Southern boy, played third base and outfield for the Giants back in the sixties and seventies? He comes up to bat against Gibson in like only his second or third at-bat ever, and Gibson doesn't like what Hart's doing in the box and BOOM - Hart's on the ground, writhing with a broken collarbone.

True. I never said Randy was more intimidating. But Gibson was one of a kind. I think Randy is pretty damn scary as is. Ask Kruk or Walker.

And I doubt Gibson would have been as scary if he was tossing up 85 MPH fastballs. A person's intimidation only goes as far as his fastball.

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 03:09 AM

Oddly enough, the pitcher who reminded me most of Gibson wasn't ever that good, just tough: the pitcher who hit a grand slam but never once allowed one, Joaquin Andujar.

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Any of you remember Jim Ray Hart? Southern boy, played third base and outfield for the Giants back in the sixties and seventies? He comes up to bat against Gibson in like only his second or third at-bat ever, and Gibson doesn't like what Hart's doing in the box and BOOM - Hart's on the ground, writhing with a broken collarbone.

Poor Jim Ray. It got worse.

"Bob Gibson welcomed Jim Ray to the big leagues in 1963 by breaking his shoulder blade with a fastball in the back. A few days after Hart's return, he was beaned by Curt Simmons and missed the rest of the season.

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 03:13 AM

Some Bob Gibson trivia.

Was a sickly child and was later diagnosed with a heart murmur.

Went to Creighton on a basketball scholarship.

First athlete to be inducted into that school's hall of fame.

During one stretch in '68, Gibson gave up two runs in 92 innings of mound mastery.

Also, won 15 games in a row during that season.

Played with the Harlem Globetrotters for a season.

Overcame numerous and nasty leg injuries to amass that brilliant career.

Oops. Almost forgot to add the nine consecutive Gold Gloves.

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

And I doubt Gibson would have been as scary if he was tossing up 85 MPH fastballs. A person's intimidation only goes as far as his fastball.

When his control was off - and sometimes when he would warm up it looked a lot like Charlie Sheen's early warm-ups in Major League - was when people got scared, regardless of what speed he was throwing at. He had arthritis in his elbow, but you'd never know it.

I can remember being at the Stick when that damned bad wind was blowing out to center and he was warming up and didn't have his control and baseballs were flying all over the place. Now no one could accuse the Giants of the sixties of being wusses - Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Marichal, Gaylord Perry, the Alou brothers, they were anything but wusses - but the fear was visible.

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Poor Jim Ray. It got worse.

"Bob Gibson welcomed Jim Ray to the big leagues in 1963 by breaking his shoulder blade with a fastball in the back. A few days after Hart's return, he was beaned by Curt Simmons and missed the rest of the season.

I didn't see the second one but I wish I had.

And I thought it was Hart's collarbone. Shows how good my memory is.

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Now no one could accuse the Giants of the sixties of being wusses - Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Marichal, Gaylord Perry, the Alou brothers, they were anything but wusses - but the fear was visible.

I just take this as a sign they were paying attention in class.

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

He had arthritis in his elbow, but you'd never know it.

Good for him. Not a whiny quitter like that Sanford Braun fella. LOL

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

When his control was off - and sometimes when he would warm up it looked a lot like Charlie Sheen's early warm-ups in Major League

That movie, which I like a great deal, actually had an impact on the real thing. IIRC, no one used music to introduce a closer before that film entered the sporting conscious. Now, everyone does it.

dsvitak · 03-26-2005, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claybor

I have never found it all that impressive when a power hitter that is payed to knock in runs stands at the plate and takes a base on balls when there are no offensive threats behind him. In Ruths day, he could take a walk and it had value because he had the best RBI man in the history of the game behind him in Lou Gehrig, but Bonds stands there and takes a walk very often when his team needs him to SWING THE BAT. Hes an RBI man, hes payed to knock in runs not stand there and watch. Homeruns are all well and good, but the bottom line is RBI's, and Bonds totals arent that impressive in that area compared to other big name hitters throughout history.

This is the EXACT argument made against Ted Williams...that he would rather take a walk, than to start swinging at bad pitches.

As much as I despise Barry (Steroids) Bonds, I can't fault him for taking a walk. I fault San Francisco management for not spending a TON of money on someone to back him up. Do you think he would walk as much if he had...Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, or Larry Walker coming up? Those are just Cardinals! They could have gotten Delgado, Sweeney, or Beltran, or crap, TONS of excellent hitters.

No, they had to have Benito Santiago....

darkhorse · 03-26-2005, 04:04 AM

Great Gibson related story below from BB Library.

October 4, 1913: Washington manager Clark Griffith uses an unheard-of eight pitchers in an end-of-season farce game with Boston, including five in the 9th inning. At age 43, he pitches one inning himself, and coach John Ryan, also 43, catches. Griffith also plays RF, where he plays one off his head and misplays Hal Janvrin's liner into an inside-the-park homer. On the other end of the scale, 17-year-old Merito Acosta plays outfield alongside Walter Johnson in CF. Johnson then comes in the 8th inning to lob pitches to two hitters. Both batters, Clyde Milan and Steve Yerkes lace hits to send Johnson back to CF, and then, in relief, Nats catcher Eddie Ainsmith, in his only ML pitching appearance, gives up two triples to allow the base runners to score. The Sox score in the 9th on Janvrin's 2nd inside-the-park homer. Joe Gedeon, in his only pitching appearance, retires the last two batters as Washington wins, 10–9, beating Fred Anderson who goes the distance.

The two runs "allowed" by Johnson will have historical repercussions: his ERA goes from 1.09 to 1.14, and Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968 will put Johnson's ERA in 2nd place on the all-time list. The eight pitchers sets a major-league record that won't be matched until the Dodgers, September 25, 1946.

IatricSB · 03-26-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestor

I don't think he'd be putting up the numbers and whatnot if he wasn't on steroids is what I'm referring to... so therefore, the idea of him being the best ballplayer in history wouldn't even come into being.

Got it, yeah if you look at it that way and figure he had 100 HRs less and a similar reduction in walks (due to the fact he was walking at the pace he was prior to steroids), then you've got a good point, we wouldn't be comparing him to the best.

IatricSB · 03-26-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

How do you think Pedro will approach Bonds?

Probably just like Gagne. Eric believed Bonds couldn't hit him, gave him a nasty fastball, and snapped his neck turning around to watch the ball fly into the parking lot.

Malleus Dei · 03-26-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Good for him. Not a whiny quitter like that Sanford Braun fella. LOL

Sandy was special. He wasn't like other pitchers. Sometimes he was almost transcendent, otherworldly.

Crapshoot · 03-26-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

No response to what? You quoted my own post. I'm confused...what question did I pose? I'm confused.

I'm not that smart.

Maybe I'm confused- I thought you asked about my logic, citing Ruth's HR numbers earleir in the thread ? Or was that Redmark Yankees- my mind is playing tricks on me..

Crapshoot · 03-26-2005, 10:53 AM

Also, Sandy Koufax aspires to be the pitcher Pedro Martinez is. He might well have been if not for the arthritis, but that's another story.

03-26-2005, 03:13 AM	#288
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Some Bob Gibson trivia. Was a sickly child and was later diagnosed with a heart murmur. Went to Creighton on a basketball scholarship. First athlete to be inducted into that school's hall of fame. During one stretch in '68, Gibson gave up two runs in 92 innings of mound mastery. Also, won 15 games in a row during that season. Played with the Harlem Globetrotters for a season. Overcame numerous and nasty leg injuries to amass that brilliant career. Oops. Almost forgot to add the nine consecutive Gold Gloves. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan." Last edited by darkhorse; 03-26-2005 at 03:14 AM.

03-26-2005, 04:04 AM	#295
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	Great Gibson related story below from BB Library. October 4, 1913: Washington manager Clark Griffith uses an unheard-of eight pitchers in an end-of-season farce game with Boston, including five in the 9th inning. At age 43, he pitches one inning himself, and coach John Ryan, also 43, catches. Griffith also plays RF, where he plays one off his head and misplays Hal Janvrin's liner into an inside-the-park homer. On the other end of the scale, 17-year-old Merito Acosta plays outfield alongside Walter Johnson in CF. Johnson then comes in the 8th inning to lob pitches to two hitters. Both batters, Clyde Milan and Steve Yerkes lace hits to send Johnson back to CF, and then, in relief, Nats catcher Eddie Ainsmith, in his only ML pitching appearance, gives up two triples to allow the base runners to score. The Sox score in the 9th on Janvrin's 2nd inside-the-park homer. Joe Gedeon, in his only pitching appearance, retires the last two batters as Washington wins, 10–9, beating Fred Anderson who goes the distance. The two runs "allowed" by Johnson will have historical repercussions: his ERA goes from 1.09 to 1.14, and Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968 will put Johnson's ERA in 2nd place on the all-time list. The eight pitchers sets a major-league record that won't be matched until the Dodgers, September 25, 1946. __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan." Last edited by darkhorse; 03-26-2005 at 04:06 AM.

03-26-2005, 10:53 AM	#300
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	Also, Sandy Koufax aspires to be the pitcher Pedro Martinez is. He might well have been if not for the arthritis, but that's another story. __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL