OOTP goes HOCKEY!!!!

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Ok, back from a short vacation and trying to keep up with all the new stuff.

One think I want to make clear (again):

Our project will not be a new EHM nor will it be OOTP Hockey!

Will it be inspired by both games? Yes, sure. Will it be inspired by the new versions of FM? Sure, I love FM. But ultimately we want to create our own game that will hopefully evolve into a long running franchise.

Just to give you a few ideas:

Online Leagues: love them, added them. -> OOTP

Attributes: will be more like EHM but we added some, removed others and changed a lot of the mechanics that are used in EHM (as far as I know)

News/Storylines: love them in OOTP, added them. -> OOTP

Player Generation: I don't like the Regen system of EHM (for the reasons other posted). We will use a slightly different system that makes it impossible to know the original player.

Edibility: EHM, OOTP, which one should we use?

Scouting: Personally I don't like both systems 100%. Thats the one area we have absolutely nothing done, both as code or as design.

Historical stuff: we would love to add support for historical leagues and we got some great ideas so far so keep your fingers crossed that we can overcome the problems we don't have with baseball (thanks to the Lahman DB in combination with much less and mire direct ratings).

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Ok, back from a short vacation and trying to keep up with all the new stuff.

One think I want to make clear (again):

Our project will not be a new EHM nor will it be OOTP Hockey!

Will it be inspired by both games? Yes, sure. Will it be inspired by the new versions of FM? Sure, I love FM. But ultimately we want to create our own game that will hopefully evolve into a long running franchise.

Just to give you a few ideas:

Online Leagues: love them, added them. -> OOTP

Attributes: will be more like EHM but we added some, removed others and changed a lot of the mechanics that are used in EHM (as far as I know)

News/Storylines: love them in OOTP, added them. -> OOTP

Player Generation: I don't like the Regen system of EHM (for the reasons other posted). We will use a slightly different system that makes it impossible to know the original player.

Edibility: EHM, OOTP, which one should we use?

Scouting: Personally I don't like both systems 100%. Thats the one area we have absolutely nothing done, both as code or as design.

Historical stuff: we would love to add support for historical leagues and we got some great ideas so far so keep your fingers crossed that we can overcome the problems we don't have with baseball (thanks to the Lahman DB in combination with much less and mire direct ratings).

So are you saying the new game will regen players rather than create new ones?

Just my opinion, but not a good idea. This was a major turn off of EHM imo. Why regen players? OOTP does a great job of creating new players, can you not do something along those lines as well?

I'm thinking for fictional leagues here mainly, but also for real leagues. Eventually real leagues become full of fictional players.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

So are you saying the new game will regen players rather than create new ones?

Just my opinion, but not a good idea. This was a major turn off of EHM imo. Why regen players? OOTP does a great job of creating new players, can you not do something along those lines as well?

Couldn't agree more. From the descriptions I've read here, the EHM way of regenerating players sounds like a really dumb idea. Why go in that direction when OOTP already has a great system for creating fictional players?

[Malte Schwarz]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

So are you saying the new game will regen players rather than create new ones?

Just my opinion, but not a good idea. This was a major turn off of EHM imo. Why regen players? OOTP does a great job of creating new players, can you not do something along those lines as well?

I'm thinking for fictional leagues here mainly, but also for real leagues. Eventually real leagues become full of fictional players.

No, we don't regen players. We will create a new player for each retired player. The new player is based on the retired player to some extent, but it's a completely different player with different abilities.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Malte Schwarz

No, we don't regen players. We will create a new player for each retired player. The new player is based on the retired player to some extent, but it's a completely different player with different abilities.

Ok, so sort of a way of keeping the talent level equal over long periods of time?

Tks for clearing that up. Was hoping for a system like OOTP (hate using that because this isn't OOTP Hockey) where you could adjust Player Creation Modifiers and such, but probably getting way ahead of you. Maybe further down the road as the game evolves?

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Malte Schwarz

No, we don't regen players. We will create a new player for each retired player. The new player is based on the retired player to some extent, but it's a completely different player with different abilities.

I guess the answer is a little misleading so I will go into a little more detail.

For every player that retires the game will generate a new player. The only information it takes from the retired player is his position and (first) nationality. Then the game will assign a quality to the new generated player based on the nationality (so a player from Sweden more likely has a good quality as a new player from Germany), not the retired player! Then the game will select a player type based on the nationality and position (e.g. new player from Russia will more likely be technical types) and in the final step the ratings will be generated based on quality, position and type.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

I guess the answer is a little misleading so I will go into a little more detail.

For every player that retires the game will generate a new player. The only information it takes from the retired player is his position and (first) nationality. Then the game will assign a quality to the new generated player based on the nationality (so a player from Sweden more likely has a good quality as a new player from Germany), not the retired player! Then the game will select a player type based on the nationality and position (e.g. new player from Russia will more likely be technical types) and in the final step the ratings will be generated based on quality, position and type.

Ok, I understand what you're saying here, but the game must create players at some level? I mean, how do you fill the lowest levels of minors so players are always moving up and eventually for some, making it to the NHL draft?

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

I guess the answer is a little misleading so I will go into a little more detail.

For every player that retires the game will generate a new player. The only information it takes from the retired player is his position and (first) nationality. Then the game will assign a quality to the new generated player based on the nationality (so a player from Sweden more likely has a good quality as a new player from Germany), not the retired player! Then the game will select a player type based on the nationality and position (e.g. new player from Russia will more likely be technical types) and in the final step the ratings will be generated based on quality, position and type.

So if there are 100 goalies in the player pool at the beginning of the league, there will always be 100 goalies? And if there are 25 Russians at the beginning, there will be 25 Russians at all times? Why limit yourselves like that? That's certainly not how it works in real life. Some years there are more goalies in the draft, some years there are more defensemen. And a team doesn't have to wait for a goalie somewhere to retire before they can recruit a rookie goaltender. Likewise, there has been a massive influx of Europeans into the NHL over the past thirty years -- it hasn't been static.

Furthermore, I think the notion that certain nations produce certain types of players doesn't bear a lot of scrutiny. For instance, there was always the belief that Swedes weren't physical players, but then how do you explain guys like Ulf Samuelsson?

Really, this is baffling. You're at the beginning of a new project here. The sky's the limit. Why tie yourselves to an idea just because it's something that EHM did?

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I agree with joe. I keep reading all these comments about taking this or that from EHM.

I'm not knocking the ideas, but I'd like to see what the developers have to offer with their version of a hockey sim game before saying it needs this and that from EHM.

I played EHM for a number of years, and it had a lot of good things, but it had plenty of weaknesses too.

I just get the impression that a lot of people are saying "base this on EHM".

EHM may have been the best at the time, but it wasn't the only hockey sim around. I'd really like to see what is in store for features, etc, and then be able to say - How about adding this or tweaking that.

Just my opinion but EHM is/was not the be all to end all when it comes to hockey sims, and jumping on the EHM bandwagon saying OOTP Hockey needs all that EHM stuff is jumping before looking.

Let's see what the developers have offer us first. As was stated elsewhere, this is not EHM 2, nor should it be.

That's not what we are saying. I think most of us are merely suggesting ideas from EHM that we feel worked, that we enjoyed and could be approved upon. It's called a discussion. Hell, i'm looking at all the text sims out there as well as stat sites for ideas. I hope the devs do as well. But anything else you are seeing of our views suggested above is simply your misguided interpretation.

Of couse we are going to wait and see what the devs decide but what's the big deal of saying "i really liked this feature in ehm and i hope you consider it here". I think it's quite obvious that most of us are not expecting EHM 2 with this game. But again, nothing wrong with suggesting features we liked and felt worked well in EHM or anygame to be in this one as well.

[Mecza]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

So if there are 100 goalies in the player pool at the beginning of the league, there will always be 100 goalies? And if there are 25 Russians at the beginning, there will be 25 Russians at all times? Why limit yourselves like that? That's certainly not how it works in real life. Some years there are more goalies in the draft, some years there are more defensemen. And a team doesn't have to wait for a goalie somewhere to retire before they can recruit a rookie goaltender. Likewise, there has been a massive influx of Europeans into the NHL over the past thirty years -- it hasn't been static.

Furthermore, I think the notion that certain nations produce certain types of players doesn't bear a lot of scrutiny. For instance, there was always the belief that Swedes weren't physical players, but then how do you explain guys like Ulf Samuelsson?

Really, this is baffling. You're at the beginning of a new project here. The sky's the limit. Why tie yourselves to an idea just because it's something that EHM did?

I'll just add this. I think it would be a much better idea to have player regeneration more like on the OOTP side of the spectrum, rather than the EHM side. And if a "nation player stereotype" is a feature of the game it would be nice to have it adjustable. Kind of like how OOTP does it with player creation modifiers.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

I guess the answer is a little misleading so I will go into a little more detail.

For every player that retires the game will generate a new player. The only information it takes from the retired player is his position and (first) nationality. Then the game will assign a quality to the new generated player based on the nationality (so a player from Sweden more likely has a good quality as a new player from Germany), not the retired player! Then the game will select a player type based on the nationality and position (e.g. new player from Russia will more likely be technical types) and in the final step the ratings will be generated based on quality, position and type.

I don't much like this. I would rather see a system like OOTP or Football Manager.
In that players are completely random but each country has a quality rating that determines the number of players generated and the quality of those players.

The regen system in EHM made long term games much less fun since it forced a perpetual universe.
Taking Germany for example, you knew that Germany would have one excellent goalie in the Kolzig regen and one above average winger in the Strum regen and after that you would have a bunch of below average to terrible players.

The same with every other nation. They would maintain their talent levels.
Russia would always have it's number of good players etc.
The hockey universe never really changed.

The system as you describe it is better than the regen system but you are still shackling your game to pre-determined outcomes and universes.

I would much prefer a system where say Germany had a hockey quality level of say...12 out of 20.
It should be exceedingly rare. Like say 1 out of every 5,000 games for all the dice rolls to roll Germany's way and it produces 4-5 HOF level players in a few year span and it can play with the international big boys.
It should also be possible but again like 1 in 50,000 games for Germany to produce a Gretzky quality player.

At the opposite end of the spectrum 1 in every 1,000 or so games Germany could hit a barren stretch and produce only a handful of fringe NHL players and nosedive in quality.

I am just using Germany as a quick example. I would like a OOTP like system where every nation on Earth has a quality level out of 100 or 20 or whatever.

I would also like there to be a dynamic system where the quality level makes very very gradual and slow changes over a long period.
That would ensure that the hockey universe stayed fresh from game to game.

You can even see this in real life. Canada is still far and away the most important hockey nation. But in the past 25 years we have seen a shift from a league where an overwhelming majority of players were Canadian to a league where 52.5% are from Canada.
Like Baseball and Basketball the sports are expanding into Western Europe and Eastern Europe and the former Soviet bloc. The talent is becoming more diversified.

If I understand your system correctly then you will always have the game locked into having the % of players in the database come from the same nations.

With the game still this early into the development cycle I think there is time to make changes to the talent generation system.
I am sure others will have their opinions and I will be happy to read them.

[tcblcommish]

When I saw this, I was so happy with the idea that the greatest baseball simulator company is adding on a hockey sim. Ever since EHM, there really hasn't been anything to fix on for puck other than ea's terrible games.

The idea of joining an online hockey league is awesome.

I am hoping that there is some kind of coaching that can be done in the games kind of like ootp so that you can really get into the games instead of just watching how they go.

Keep up the work fellas, I know I'll be a buyer when it hits the virtual shelf

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

So if there are 100 goalies in the player pool at the beginning of the league, there will always be 100 goalies? And if there are 25 Russians at the beginning, there will be 25 Russians at all times? Why limit yourselves like that? That's certainly not how it works in real life. Some years there are more goalies in the draft, some years there are more defensemen. And a team doesn't have to wait for a goalie somewhere to retire before they can recruit a rookie goaltender. Likewise, there has been a massive influx of Europeans into the NHL over the past thirty years -- it hasn't been static.

Not in the draft, in the worldwide database! The number and quality in each different Draft will vary from year to year, just as in reality.

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Furthermore, I think the notion that certain nations produce certain types of players doesn't bear a lot of scrutiny. For instance, there was always the belief that Swedes weren't physical players, but then how do you explain guys like Ulf Samuelsson?

Not every new player will be of the same type. Just the chance of a new player from Sweden to be a technical and not very physical is higher. See my next post for a few more clarifications.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

I think most of the confusion comes from the fact that everyone compares feature with the way EHM uses it or the way OOTP handles it. Then we say something like "a bit like EHM" and people assume it works exactly like EHM. I have no idea how EHM works internally so in the future I will just explain (as much as it is possible at this time) how we do it.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I don't much like this. I would rather see a system like OOTP or Football Manager.
In that players are completely random but each country has a quality rating that determines the number of players generated and the quality of those players.

That is almost exactly how it works in our game. Each nation has a quality rating which determines the newly generated player.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

The regen system in EHM made long term games much less fun since it forced a perpetual universe.
Taking Germany for example, you knew that Germany would have one excellent goalie in the Kolzig regen and one above average winger in the Strum regen and after that you would have a bunch of below average to terrible players.

The same with every other nation. They would maintain their talent levels.
Russia would always have it's number of good players etc.
The hockey universe never really changed.

Not the case in our game.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

The system as you describe it is better than the regen system but you are still shackling your game to pre-determined outcomes and universes.

I would much prefer a system where say Germany had a hockey quality level of say...12 out of 20.
It should be exceedingly rare. Like say 1 out of every 5,000 games for all the dice rolls to roll Germany's way and it produces 4-5 HOF level players in a few year span and it can play with the international big boys.
It should also be possible but again like 1 in 50,000 games for Germany to produce a Gretzky quality player.

At the opposite end of the spectrum 1 in every 1,000 or so games Germany could hit a barren stretch and produce only a handful of fringe NHL players and nosedive in quality.

That is exactly how it works in our game. It is possible (even if very, very rare) that a once in your lifetime player is generated in Germany. The chance that such a new player is generated in Canada is just higher. The most important thing to understands is: This generated player is not a Gretzky Regen but a completely new generated player!

On average Germany would produce some NHL talent, in some years more (like this days) in other years just a few player and from time to time it would produce an above average type NHL player who could be a Winger or a defense man, not necessarily a Goalie because of Kölzig.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I am just using Germany as a quick example. I would like a OOTP like system where every nation on Earth has a quality level out of 100 or 20 or whatever.

We use the world_default.xml as basis for our project and modify it. Each nation has a "quality" but we have to make it a bit more detailed (bigger scale, maybe even split it up).

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I would also like there to be a dynamic system where the quality level makes very very gradual and slow changes over a long period.
That would ensure that the hockey universe stayed fresh from game to game.

That will make it into the game at some point, I just don't know if it will be the first version.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

If I understand your system correctly then you will always have the game locked into having the % of players in the database come from the same nations.

In the database: yes. In the NHL (just as example): no. The number of players from one nation in the database has nothing to do with the quality of the players. As I (and you) wrote above: it is possible that (due to luck) Germany produces a number of good NHL talents so the % of German players in the NHL would go up. 20 years later (or in a different game) it might change and only poor new talent is generated in Germany so the % of German players in the NHL would go down.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

In the database: yes. In the NHL (just as example): no. The number of players from one nation in the database has nothing to do with the quality of the players. As I (and you) wrote above: it is possible that (due to luck) Germany produces a number of good NHL talents so the % of German players in the NHL would go up. 20 years later (or in a different game) it might change and only poor new talent is generated in Germany so the % of German players in the NHL would go down.

I hope, that in the future, the DB will be customizeable, so we can create our own worlds, nations, etc etc and set the quality we see fit.

I believe customization is the key for any game in the niche market to suceed. The more we can customize the game and its intricacies, the better.

I know we are expecting a lot, but we do understand that everything isn't going to make it into version 1. The main thing is knowing that the possibility exists for these things to make it into the game as it grows.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I hope, that in the future, the DB will be customizeable, so we can create our own worlds, nations, etc etc and set the quality we see fit.

I believe customization is the key for any game in the niche market to suceed. The more we can customize the game and its intricacies, the better.

It is already customizeable: in theory you could make Germany equal in quality to Canada, just change the value in the world_default.xml file. In addition you would change the reputation of the DEL or otherwise German player will be pretty good but still move to the NHL.

[fireholder]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

\

In the database: yes. In the NHL (just as example): no. The number of players from one nation in the database has nothing to do with the quality of the players. As I (and you) wrote above: it is possible that (due to luck) Germany produces a number of good NHL talents so the % of German players in the NHL would go up. 20 years later (or in a different game) it might change and only poor new talent is generated in Germany so the % of German players in the NHL would go down.

The only suggestion I would make would be to possibly do something similar with player nationality that you're already doing with player skill. instead of linking a player with a retiring one (nationally), replace every retired player with a new player who has a proportional chance of being a certain nationality. the data for those nationalities could be edited so the user can have an excessively slovenian player generation one or two seasons.

the only positive to that would be the ease of editing something to change the odds of nationalities year in and year out, though. it'd be cool but not vital.

that aside, on a large scale, "regening" nationalities or using accurate odds for a player's nationality are going to come out to be the same damned thing. that's what probability does, people.

anyone who's being quick to attack the WTHM guys needs to pause and think before harassing them as using a "bad" system. my suggestion (which someone else may have had by now) is the only solution i could fathom to people's disdain for the regened nationality idea, and in the end it's going to come out to be the same damned thing -- more or less.

=]

[fireholder]

The amount of people who are complaining about EHM comments is baffling. Just because EHM is being mentioned doesn't at all mean that those who mention it are looking for EHM 2. I sincerely hope the WTHM team realizes this.

Then to insult the game is even more confusing. If it's so good why is it dead? It's dead because hockey played second fiddle to football for SI, it's dead because it wasn't marketed at all in "hockey's home," and it's dead because manager games are niche games and sales primarily in EHM's region of origin (the Nordic) weren't enough to keep the game going alone (especially since it's not the most densely populated area).

I'm not sure why there has to be hostility towards EHM. EHM isn't going to be a competitor or anything. EHM was a fantastic game on its own. But it will be 6 years old. It has flaws. Many people who played EHM were die-hard hockey fans, and if anyone hasn't sat down with EHM and given it a few weeks of effort/concern (as with any manager game), then talking it down doesn't really make sense.

As I've said, I know that 50+ people are going to buy WTHM once I play and review it (if I stamp and enjoy it). Right now I have extensive knowledge of EHM and I've got a ton of people currently using EHM. But I don't want to use EHM any more. Not now that I know a new game is coming out. I want to use a newer, better game. I sincerely hope that's what everyone would want.

So, yes, we mention EHM. Because we don't want EHM 2. We don't want something that winds up being on par with EHM with some things that EHM does better and some things that WTHM does better. I want WTHM to be superior in every way, and that may be a lofty desire, and I may be new to this OOTP scene, but I'm hopeful because I see developers who are directly interacting with their will-be clientele and hopefully valid and experienced suggestions get taken to heart. Mention something EHM does good so that WTHM can do it better. Mention something EHM does bad so WTHM can avoid the issue.

I mean, come on guys. =] If you were going to build an airplane, would you want suggestions of the things that the most successful planes have done, or would you reject any comments about the things Boeing has done and decide to tinker and propel yourself off a cliff Wright-Brothers style and work entirely from the ground up? :P

[Bluenoser]

Attacking, Complaining, Insulting? Awful strong words.

Nobody is attacking, insulting, or complaining. They're putting forth thoughts, ideas, and suggestions, that's all.

I know I didn't attack WTHM, nor did I insult EHM. I gave my opinion of that game, and that's all it is, an opinion. We all have one, and whether others like it or not, those opinions are going to be shared. That's what happens on forums, it's inevitable.

The best thing to do is to take it with a grain of salt. I don't want to, nor do I see any need to, get into a pi$$ing contest here.

If someones opinion is objectionable, offensive, or disagreeable to you, then counter it with an arguement, instead of accusing people of being insulting, attacking, or complaining. If not, ignore it.

No decisions have been made based on these opinions that I can see. Again, they're nothing more than peoples opinions of what the game should/shouldn't include. Whether or not the development team buys into these ideas is another matter, but at least they're out there for consideration.

All voices should be heard, even the critics.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Guys, please keep it civil! In the end we all want the same: a great hockey manager game that is actively developed in the future.