OOTP6 - speed up release ? - OPEN for comments - Page 14

Henry · 04-02-2004, 02:53 PM

I'll throw in my 2 cents - which is probably worth about half that right now

Here's the way I see this thread....

1. Markus is shooting for what appeared to be an April1-15 release date.
2. Since the biggest item he has left is H2H, he considers finishing up everything else and releasing the game asap - with plans to follow up in 2-3 weeks with the H2H addon.
3. He posts a poll to see what most "customers" want.
4. Since most "customers" are not immediately interested in H2H, they opt for an early release without it.
5. Thread then proceeds to decay into accusations that the H2H feature was promised, and that orders may be cancelled if it's not in the initial release.

No matter how many times I look at the 5 steps above, I see two options that equate to the following....

1. V6 release A without H2H and release B with H2H 2-3 weeks later, or
2. V6 release A with H2H released in 2-3 weeks, or
3. V6 release A without H2H and release B never being released.

Assuming that option 3 is not going to happen (unless your paranoid to begin with), it seemed like a reasonable question. Based on the poll results, it appears the game can be offered about 2 weeks early to 87% of it's customers with the other 13% following up a bit later.

So.... why is it that those that want H2H in the initial release want 87% of the customers to wait 2 weeks before they see the game?

Just a simple question based on a simple observation

Henry

HolyCow98 · 04-02-2004, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceM
And according to another source at MLB (heard on ESPN Sports) there are 3 opening days in Major League Baseball this year. So which do you believe. My personal feeling is there's only 1 opening day, and that day happens to be whenever the first regular season game is played.

What ever happened to the age old tradition of the Reds always playing in the first game of the regular season?

Amen to that.

Lamorak · 04-02-2004, 03:09 PM

While I'm strongly in favour of having a ASAP release I'm not without reservations. Mainly on 2 counts:

1) That compiling the program for packaging and distribution now, will add additional work hours that will expand the release time for those additional features at a later time. I despise unnessessary redundancy.

2) An artist should never show his work before he's ready. Markus is a *Master* who deserves to have his work shown when he feels it's worthy. I would hate him to release it now with even a few tiny flaws that could in any way detract from the overall craftsmanship. I worry that no matter how small, *any* bugs would become a cause for protest during what should be a time for uninterupted accolades.

--Dave

SSG Troyer · 04-02-2004, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnar
The one thing I looked forward to is playing all these new personalities in H2H. But unfortunately look at all these people that i'll never get a chance to play.....It would truly be a shame if these people votes yes just to get the game out early and then played in H2H league's.

I voted yes, not just to get the game out early, but because I truely don't ever see myself playing in an online league, H2H or not. The multiplayer aspects of almost every game out there hold little or no sway with me. I simply do not do multiplayer, with the rather huge exception of SWG. Rise of Nations, Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, Jedi Academy, Madden 2004, Age of Empires, and Neverwinter Nights are all games I own with large multiplayer communities. I am not in them.

Having said that, why would it be a shame? As long as H2H works as advertised when it does come out near the promised date, what's the big deal? The multiplaying community gets what they want, at the earliest possible date.

Why should we soloists have to get the game when you multiplayers do, if the only difference is H2H? If the rest is ready to go, the only reason we have to wait is because you (2nd person plural "you", this is not personal) do? Doesn't seem right to me.

Ragnar · 04-02-2004, 03:31 PM

Ok Henry you got me. I'm paranoid. Plain and simple. You hit it right on the head. I will now end my paranoia.

My last post was a paranoid one but not self motivated. I simply wrote the post because I feel alot of people would say anything to get the game out now reguardless of their opinion then do the exact opposite in the future. Making the poll worse than it is.

Posting something like get it out now because I never play h2h anyway is like saying who cars about gas prices i take the bus. There is no reason to even post a comment like that. It gets aggrivating. My concern was with the final product not being ever implemented as advertised. How that can be self motivated is beyond me. I only pointed out those who could care less what the results are as long as it suits them. There is a difference.

Now i'm glad Henry has cleared things up.

thomamon · 04-02-2004, 03:31 PM

Think about it this way in terms of what they are going to do...

Do they want to make 90% of the people happy and only have 10% complaining or would that rather have 10% happy and 90% bitching on the board about the release.

TM

SSG Troyer · 04-02-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnar
Posting something like get it out now because I never play h2h anyway is like saying who cars about gas prices i take the bus. There is no reason to even post a comment like that.

Didn't even read my post, did you? Your analogy fails, because gas prices could drive up the cost of my bus fare. H2H has/will have no forseeable effect on my enjoyablity of this game. So I truely don't care about it.

jaxmagicman · 04-02-2004, 03:37 PM

Wow I didn't know we had 400 people still active on this board.

HolyCow98 · 04-02-2004, 03:40 PM

Trust me...people find something to bitch about if the game was released in the next 5 minutes....

Every year its been the same thing....
Guys praise Markus
Guys pissed off game is too easy
Guys pissed off game is too hard
Guys pissed off cuz they read the feature list wrong and wont admit till Henry points it out to them (lol...i remember that one if no one else does)
Guys pissed off cuz of trade AI
FLAME WARS!!!!!!!!!!
Guys threaten to never buy OOTP ever again....
FLAME WARS!!!!!!!!!!
2-4 weeks it usually calms down and all is peaceful again...sorta...

I want the most finished product for my money. It doesn't matter if its a grilled cheese sandwich or OOTP....I want it when its done.

Henry · 04-02-2004, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnar
Ok Henry you got me. I'm paranoid. Plain and simple. You hit it right on the head. I will now end my paranoia.

My last post was a paranoid one but not self motivated. I simply wrote the post because I feel alot of people would say anything to get the game out now reguardless of their opinion then do the exact opposite in the future. Making the poll worse than it is.

Posting something like get it out now because I never play h2h anyway is like saying who cars about gas prices i take the bus. There is no reason to even post a comment like that. It gets aggrivating. My concern was with the final product not being ever implemented as advertised. How that can be self motivated is beyond me. I only pointed out those who could care less what the results are as long as it suits them. There is a difference.

Now i'm glad Henry has cleared things up.

No problem. It occured to me the issue revolved around a fear that H2H was being "dropped" which is not the case. Markus' suggestion is only to separate it from the initial relase to allow most folks to get the game earlier.

I don't know he's made that decision yet - so don't hold me to it, but I think it was a reasonable option

Henry

Bluenoser · 04-02-2004, 03:40 PM

Here's a simple question for you Henry.

How can you be sure option 3 isn't going to happen without parania?

Reference to last version of OOTP and financial co-efficient. The record speaks for itself.

Nuff said on that...............

In the point I made in this post originally, please show me where I said I wanted 87% or whatever % of people to wait. I said I wanted Markus to wait until the game is complete. There's a big difference there bucko..............so please don't put words in my mouth.

And what I find really amusing about this whole thread/topic of early release. The people who have whined and cried for the past few weeks about getting the game released will be the same ones who are first on this webboard whining and crying when a bug is found saying - "This game wasn't ready for release, why did it get released with this bug" "This is not right"

I stick by what I said - release the game when it's complete and ready.

treedom · 04-02-2004, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HolyCow98
all is peaceful again...sorta...

till the next patch comes out, then it starts all over again

Ragnar · 04-02-2004, 03:44 PM

My analogy is flawed but did not fail. Paying gas prices for your car means to pay full price so you get hit %100. Bus prices will go up but you will only pay a small portion. I just had to get that in.

Ben E Lou · 04-02-2004, 03:45 PM

Even though I couldn't care less about this feature, I can sure understand a little paranoia from those who want it if a promised feature did get left off in the past. (I was not aware of such a thing having happened until I read this thread.)

Just my $0.02. Take it FWIW.

--Ben

Henry · 04-02-2004, 03:48 PM

BruceM,

To put it simply I did not put words in YOUR mouth. I simply protracted a position that seemed to be prevelent among those who were insisting the game not be released without H2H. I had no intention of pointing out anyone in particular - so don't take it so personally.

As far as the financial co-efficient, it is still on the table. I've pointed out numerous times that this enhancement proved to be far more difficult than what was originally thought. Once the problems are worked out, I'm sure it will find it's way into the game in one way or another. A little understanding for difficulties we don't understand would go a long way here....

One other thing I need to say.... don't lose site of the fact that this game is the culmination of a lot of peoples ideas. MY ideas don't all get in as I would like them to - nor do anyone else's. Everything is a compromise - developed to try and bring out the best parts of everyone's thoughts. None of us has a license on the only good ideas.

Henry

Ragnar · 04-02-2004, 03:52 PM

Good point. Now please tell me what is a financial co-efficient? I'm not kidding. This is the first i'v heard about it. In this thread only.

mh2365 · 04-02-2004, 03:53 PM

87 % happy if he released it now, 13% unhappy .... No matter how he releases and how great of a game it is 13% would be unhappy .... If the game came with a supermodel to bring you beer and service you while you played the game 13% would say I don't like blondes, or my supermodels legs were too long .... Some people would have no identity if they couldn't be miserable and complain about every little freaking thing ... so I say please 87% of us now, because it's the same 87% that'll still be pleased two weeks from now

SSG Troyer · 04-02-2004, 03:54 PM

The heck with sitting on the front page hitting F5 to see if the game is out ... I'm having a blast sitting on this thread hitting F5 ...

"Small minds are easily amused" Maj Robert Kibler, 1977

Bluenoser · 04-02-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
BruceM,

To put it simply I did not put words in YOUR mouth. I simply protracted a position that seemed to be prevelent among those who were insisting the game not be released without H2H. I had no intention of pointing out anyone in particular - so don't take it so personally.

Here's your previous quote So.... why is it that those that want H2H in the initial release want 87% of the customers to wait 2 weeks before they see the game?

I'm part of "those", so I guess it does apply to me.

Quote:

As far as the financial co-efficient, it is still on the table. I've pointed out numerous times that this enhancement proved to be far more difficult than what was originally thought. Once the problems are worked out, I'm sure it will find it's way into the game in one way or another. A little understanding for difficulties we don't understand would go a long way here....
Henry

Right, and if 2 weeks from now the H2H play starts to not work or the enhancement turns out to be far more difficult than what was originally thought, this time next year you'll be saying the same thing about it. "It's still on the table"

I'd much rather Markus wait to release and get the H2H in. For me, H2H won't be only or mainly for online leagues. I can envision playing a lot of exibition games for fun in H2H mode. I do it with HH all the time and see no reason why I won't with OOTP.

MidnightPyro · 04-02-2004, 03:55 PM

I can understand other people's positions, and how some people might be rather upset about H2H not being in the original game.
I'm doubting though, that H2H won't make it in. Markus has stated that it's already around 50% done. Something as big as H2H, and something that was promised to be in the game...well, I doubt Markus would just turn around and scrap the idea, and tell us that it was too hard, because the feature was indeed promised. The way I look at this situation...
a.) The game will be released early with H2H not included
b.) An update, at a later time, will add H2H into the game. This later time shouldn't be too much later than the game's originally set release date.

So, to me, what Markus is doing is releasing the game slightly early with a piece missing, or in a sense releasing a beta version with just 1 feature missing. Considering most of the masses seem to not care about H2H in the initial release, but Solo play, I believe this is a good move because it gives everyone what they want - an earlier release of OOTP, and the promise of H2H 2-3 weeks after OOTP6 has originally been released.
As I see it, it's a win-win situation.

View Poll Results: Should I initially leave out the head-to-head feature for the release version?
YES, I wouldn't use it anyway, give me the game as soon as possible.	627	85.31%
No, I want this feature fully implemented in the release version.	108	14.69%
Voters: 735. You may not vote on this poll

04-02-2004, 02:53 PM	#261
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	I'll throw in my 2 cents - which is probably worth about half that right now Here's the way I see this thread.... 1. Markus is shooting for what appeared to be an April1-15 release date. 2. Since the biggest item he has left is H2H, he considers finishing up everything else and releasing the game asap - with plans to follow up in 2-3 weeks with the H2H addon. 3. He posts a poll to see what most "customers" want. 4. Since most "customers" are not immediately interested in H2H, they opt for an early release without it. 5. Thread then proceeds to decay into accusations that the H2H feature was promised, and that orders may be cancelled if it's not in the initial release. No matter how many times I look at the 5 steps above, I see two options that equate to the following.... 1. V6 release A without H2H and release B with H2H 2-3 weeks later, or 2. V6 release A with H2H released in 2-3 weeks, or 3. V6 release A without H2H and release B never being released. Assuming that option 3 is not going to happen (unless your paranoid to begin with), it seemed like a reasonable question. Based on the poll results, it appears the game can be offered about 2 weeks early to 87% of it's customers with the other 13% following up a bit later. So.... why is it that those that want H2H in the initial release want 87% of the customers to wait 2 weeks before they see the game? Just a simple question based on a simple observation Henry Last edited by Henry; 04-02-2004 at 03:04 PM.

04-02-2004, 03:31 PM	#266
thomamon Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 5,274	Think about it this way in terms of what they are going to do... Do they want to make 90% of the people happy and only have 10% complaining or would that rather have 10% happy and 90% bitching on the board about the release. TM __________________ Thomas A. Montalto Please check out my Stupid Little Blog - http://www.stupidlittleblog.com

04-02-2004, 03:37 PM	#268
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	Wow I didn't know we had 400 people still active on this board. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

04-02-2004, 03:40 PM	#269
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	Trust me...people find something to bitch about if the game was released in the next 5 minutes.... Every year its been the same thing.... Guys praise Markus Guys pissed off game is too easy Guys pissed off game is too hard Guys pissed off cuz they read the feature list wrong and wont admit till Henry points it out to them (lol...i remember that one if no one else does) Guys pissed off cuz of trade AI FLAME WARS!!!!!!!!!! Guys threaten to never buy OOTP ever again.... FLAME WARS!!!!!!!!!! 2-4 weeks it usually calms down and all is peaceful again...sorta... I want the most finished product for my money. It doesn't matter if its a grilled cheese sandwich or OOTP....I want it when its done. __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

04-02-2004, 03:09 PM	#263
Lamorak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 195	While I'm strongly in favour of having a ASAP release I'm not without reservations. Mainly on 2 counts: 1) That compiling the program for packaging and distribution now, will add additional work hours that will expand the release time for those additional features at a later time. I despise unnessessary redundancy. 2) An artist should never show his work before he's ready. Markus is a Master who deserves to have his work shown when he feels it's worthy. I would hate him to release it now with even a few tiny flaws that could in any way detract from the overall craftsmanship. I worry that no matter how small, any bugs would become a cause for protest during what should be a time for uninterupted accolades. --Dave

04-02-2004, 03:31 PM	#265
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,509	Ok Henry you got me. I'm paranoid. Plain and simple. You hit it right on the head. I will now end my paranoia. My last post was a paranoid one but not self motivated. I simply wrote the post because I feel alot of people would say anything to get the game out now reguardless of their opinion then do the exact opposite in the future. Making the poll worse than it is. Posting something like get it out now because I never play h2h anyway is like saying who cars about gas prices i take the bus. There is no reason to even post a comment like that. It gets aggrivating. My concern was with the final product not being ever implemented as advertised. How that can be self motivated is beyond me. I only pointed out those who could care less what the results are as long as it suits them. There is a difference. Now i'm glad Henry has cleared things up.

04-02-2004, 03:40 PM	#271
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,216	Here's a simple question for you Henry. How can you be sure option 3 isn't going to happen without parania? Reference to last version of OOTP and financial co-efficient. The record speaks for itself. Nuff said on that............... In the point I made in this post originally, please show me where I said I wanted 87% or whatever % of people to wait. I said I wanted Markus to wait until the game is complete. There's a big difference there bucko..............so please don't put words in my mouth. And what I find really amusing about this whole thread/topic of early release. The people who have whined and cried for the past few weeks about getting the game released will be the same ones who are first on this webboard whining and crying when a bug is found saying - "This game wasn't ready for release, why did it get released with this bug" "This is not right" I stick by what I said - release the game when it's complete and ready. Last edited by Bluenoser; 04-02-2004 at 03:44 PM.

04-02-2004, 03:44 PM	#273
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,509	My analogy is flawed but did not fail. Paying gas prices for your car means to pay full price so you get hit %100. Bus prices will go up but you will only pay a small portion. I just had to get that in.

04-02-2004, 03:45 PM	#274
Ben E Lou Front Office Football Central Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Souf Cackilacky Posts: 1,762	Even though I couldn't care less about this feature, I can sure understand a little paranoia from those who want it if a promised feature did get left off in the past. (I was not aware of such a thing having happened until I read this thread.) Just my $0.02. Take it FWIW. --Ben

04-02-2004, 03:48 PM	#275
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	BruceM, To put it simply I did not put words in YOUR mouth. I simply protracted a position that seemed to be prevelent among those who were insisting the game not be released without H2H. I had no intention of pointing out anyone in particular - so don't take it so personally. As far as the financial co-efficient, it is still on the table. I've pointed out numerous times that this enhancement proved to be far more difficult than what was originally thought. Once the problems are worked out, I'm sure it will find it's way into the game in one way or another. A little understanding for difficulties we don't understand would go a long way here.... One other thing I need to say.... don't lose site of the fact that this game is the culmination of a lot of peoples ideas. MY ideas don't all get in as I would like them to - nor do anyone else's. Everything is a compromise - developed to try and bring out the best parts of everyone's thoughts. None of us has a license on the only good ideas. Henry

04-02-2004, 03:52 PM	#276
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,509	Good point. Now please tell me what is a financial co-efficient? I'm not kidding. This is the first i'v heard about it. In this thread only.

04-02-2004, 03:53 PM	#277
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	87 % happy if he released it now, 13% unhappy .... No matter how he releases and how great of a game it is 13% would be unhappy .... If the game came with a supermodel to bring you beer and service you while you played the game 13% would say I don't like blondes, or my supermodels legs were too long .... Some people would have no identity if they couldn't be miserable and complain about every little freaking thing ... so I say please 87% of us now, because it's the same 87% that'll still be pleased two weeks from now

04-02-2004, 03:54 PM	#278
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	The heck with sitting on the front page hitting F5 to see if the game is out ... I'm having a blast sitting on this thread hitting F5 ... "Small minds are easily amused" Maj Robert Kibler, 1977 __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

04-02-2004, 03:55 PM	#280
MidnightPyro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 228	I can understand other people's positions, and how some people might be rather upset about H2H not being in the original game. I'm doubting though, that H2H won't make it in. Markus has stated that it's already around 50% done. Something as big as H2H, and something that was promised to be in the game...well, I doubt Markus would just turn around and scrap the idea, and tell us that it was too hard, because the feature was indeed promised. The way I look at this situation... a.) The game will be released early with H2H not included b.) An update, at a later time, will add H2H into the game. This later time shouldn't be too much later than the game's originally set release date. So, to me, what Markus is doing is releasing the game slightly early with a piece missing, or in a sense releasing a beta version with just 1 feature missing. Considering most of the masses seem to not care about H2H in the initial release, but Solo play, I believe this is a good move because it gives everyone what they want - an earlier release of OOTP, and the promise of H2H 2-3 weeks after OOTP6 has originally been released. As I see it, it's a win-win situation.