Competitive balance discussion

[wolfslice]

It really should even itself out. Eventually even without paying money, if you keep working on the team, you'll catch up to the whales. There is only so good a team can be. I say it's more fun to build up without paying, but either way is fine. Were all in it for the long haul.

Here's a cool idea though for OOTP 20: Occasional small satellite leagues that have a salary cap. Not saying the main league or anything, but small mid season ones. Salary caps, injuries, minor leagues--- these things would actually set Perfect Team apart from other card collecting sports games.

Cause let's be honest here, OOTP devs arent really isn't doing anything new at all with Perfect Team. They're playing it incredibly safe. Every last idea is a retread of other sports card collecting games. Yeah, it's fun and that's why we're all playing, but if they introduced things like salary and injuries and maybe brought some of the depth OOTP is known for to *SMALL LEAGUES* (I really want to emphasize that this wouldn't be the main Perfect Team), it'd be a lot of fun and people would be happy.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

If only Markus was on Reddit. But there is no changing their minds. This mode will die quickly because people will get tired real fast. Maybe their tournaments will be setup differently.

This.


The cards are too static. They did say cards would change some according to real life counterparts, but that's not happening until the next season kicks in I wouldn't think, so OOTP20. What about now though ? The only thing that can differentiate one card from another is experience gained at a position.



Unless there are massive releases of new content for the mode, I think it will become evident after a while that money won't be spent much past the first few weeks. There's just so many ways you can tinker with your lineup when your lowest card is an 88.


There are no injuries, so no real need to move around with your lineup, unless you want to micromanage hot and cold streaks.


There is no development after seasons. OOTP has a great development engine, that would be pretty awesome to see your cards evolve using the engine (not age into retirement, because people do spend money to get cards), after a surprising good year maybe your player gets a boost somewhere for the next season, making him a little bit better than a fresh out of the pack card.



All there is left are tournaments. I'm really hoping those will be varied and have all kinds of gimmicks to them. That's the only thing I can see that will prevent the mode from going stale fast. Because let's face it...there's not much to do, other than scouring the AH or just mass buying packs...you can play around with your lineup but at the end of the day, most long term goals are going to be self generated. Yes, you want to win, but that's the very basic of any game...


And yes, there many, many cards. But by the end of beta, a lot of the lineups had all the same cards in them. Not necessarily perfects, but quite a few cards were in too many lineups. And that was only 3 weeks worth In 4 months...as static as the cards are, unless there's content drops...

[Clavette]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Plus there's also a huge difference between teams that may be throwing hundreds of dollars at their team to buy all the perfects, with the people who throw 5 or 10 bucks here or there to buy a few extra card packs. Figuring out which teams "belong" in each division would be an extra nightmare.

I do think that next year, when we bring in tournaments, that will go a long way to ease concerns. I don't know exactly how we will run them yet, but competing in, say, an "all-bronze" tournament (or we may need an "all-bronze without Ichiro" tournament to balance it better ) is definitely one where everyone will essentially be on an even playing field.

So no tournaments before 20?

Ichiro could easily be bumped to a 70 without changing any of his attributes. No one would know

[Ty Cobb]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Plus there's also a huge difference between teams that may be throwing hundreds of dollars at their team to buy all the perfects, with the people who throw 5 or 10 bucks here or there to buy a few extra card packs. Figuring out which teams "belong" in each division would be an extra nightmare.

I do think that next year, when we bring in tournaments, that will go a long way to ease concerns. I don't know exactly how we will run them yet, but competing in, say, an "all-bronze" tournament (or we may need an "all-bronze without Ichiro" tournament to balance it better ) is definitely one where everyone will essentially be on an even playing field.

Understand, I'm not trying to pick a scab. I'm just looking for an open exchange of ideas. It isn't my business model...and judging from my enormous (hahahahahaha) pile of wealth, there might be a reason you guys are doing this and not me.

No matter the outcomes here, you guys are the best developers I've seen. I can see your side of the discussion, and understand the headaches it could create.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Some people are purists and want it that way. Others want to throw money at the problem. What's wrong with having a system that allows for more than one option for strategy?

I'm not saying all of us should run to a no $$$ league. That would be foolish. I'm saying that if possible, options might be explored so that the only option for success isn't throwing money at the problem. You'll notice I also suggested a high rollers division. My feeling is that both are needed, as well as one or more tiers in between. It's discussion. I'm a big believer in this program and its developers. I'm not a big believer in economic stratification...so I've raised the discussion, and hopefully it'll stay on a big enough road that Markus et al will find some good ideas. I don't want to see this turn into a whine-fest. That would defeat the purpose of talking.

I don't think a separation between people who spend money and don't will do what people think it would do. I got lucky with my gold card and turned that around for a pretty substantial profit. Bought a few cards low, and sold them for a pretty big profit too. So where does a team like that belong? What about someone who spends $1, opens a pack and has no luck. Do they get placed in with the high rollers?

It's going to take a few weeks for levels to get ironed out. Sometimes you'll get placed in a tough division and have no chance, but I think we should at least wait for a couple of cycles before calling Perfect Team a failure after one day.

[Kushiel]

It has already been discussed over, and over. You can build a team with little or no money that can compete if you work the auction house diligently. I had some bought points but I have worked the AH for maybe 10 or more hours the past 2 days and have improved vastly on the cards I drew from packs by selling and buying more packs. If you want to win you have to invest something, time or money.. If you do not have the time or money you can still make it. You cannot nor should you expect to take the 6 packs they give you and say, "I should be advancing in league level" by doing little or nothing except tweaking your same line up day in and day out.. You can build that way but it will take time using only the PP you earn from achievements with the 36 cards that they give you. That is why there is relegation. Have patience; play your way and have fun. What if the small market teams in baseball just rolled up the sidewalks and went home? They take a slower approach than the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. Many of these small market teams win too when they get there in talent It just took longer to home grow their players. I respect your opinions, I just do not agree with your doom and gloom forecast. You will never be happy if you lay awake at night and fret because Bill Gates lives in a bigger house

Have fun; it is only a game!

[Maddox]

My only fear with promotion/relegation is that as more teams become stacked then stacked teams will start getting relegated from the top tier and begin to fill up the next tier until that league is full of stacked teams, etc. Eventually you could end up with multiple leagues of stacked teams

I realize that this scenario is probably a longshot and would take many month to materialize but the possibility is there.

[Orcin]

Going back to the original post, you made an assumption that may not be true. You don't know that he spent any money at all to build that roster. He may have pulled a perfect card out of one of his initial few packs and sold it for lots of points. What are you going to say when a person does that on your free-to-play server? Are you going to boot him off too?

By the way, to all of those people who want a separate server for players that don't spend money... how about a separate auction house too? Because, if you don't have people buying mass quantities of points with real money, there won't be a market for those diamonds and perfects that you want to sell. No one on your server will have enough points to outbid the auto-sell prices.

[wolfslice]

Originally Posted by Maddox

My only fear with promotion/relegation is that as more teams become stacked then stacked teams will start getting relegated from the top tier and begin to fill up the next tier until that league is full of stacked teams, etc. Eventually you could end up with multiple leagues of stacked teams

I realize that this scenario is probably a longshot and would take many month to materialize but the possibility is there.

In all likelihood though, within a few months you'll be stacked too even without paying a dime. Your team can only improve in this game and there is only so high it can go.

That's why it REALLY needs tournaments and things to keep it fresh.

[BusterKing]

Give me a game that is not pay to win and I will play it for months, I like a challenge. To me it's not a challenge to buy your wins. But I might be in the rare section about this. I am all for Markus to make money but I think a compromise can be reach if he is willing to listen.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by wolfslice

In all likelihood though, within a few months you'll be stacked too even without paying a dime. Your team can only improve in this game and there is only so high it can go.

That's why it REALLY needs tournaments and things to keep it fresh.

I'll be honest, I don't ever see myself being stacked. I don't enjoy playing the market so I will be relying on earned points.

[Kushiel]

Since I posted earlier I went back into the game. I had sold a Ramirez diamond card and I bought 10 packs with the revenue. I drew a Josh Donaldson that will at least get me 4k PP, but I drew a Cory Kluber Diamond also that will earn me much more than 4k but I also drew a Lou Gehrig Perfect WAR card. This was in just 10 packs from selling a diamond reasonably priced that I had drawn yesterday. There is no big 100,000 PP investment from me for these three cards, just luck. and working in the AH.

[Whoofe]

i hate the Yankees and the Dodgers


just sayin

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Since I posted earlier I went back into the game. I had sold a Ramirez diamond card and I bought 10 packs with the revenue. I drew a Josh Donaldson that will at least get me 4k PP, but I drew a Cory Kluber Diamond also that will earn me much more than 4k but I also drew a Lou Gehrig Perfect WAR card. This was in just 10 packs from selling a diamond reasonably priced that I had drawn yesterday. There is no big 100,000 PP investment from me for these three cards, just luck. and working in the AH.

I hate you. I can't tell you how many packs I've opened and still not one Diamond or Perfect card.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I hate you. I can't tell you how many packs I've opened and still not one Diamond or Perfect card.

The crazy AH and the packs have been kind.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Dogberry99]

Wait... Am I understanding this correctly? No tournaments until OOTP 20's PT?

[Thalion]

There’s a Gehrig perfect card?!

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

The crazy AH and the packs have been kind.

[IMG][/IMG]

OMG. I think my average pull from a Bronze pack is something like this.

*edit. Yup, pure nothing. I bought 5 packs using the 5k I had lying around. 1 Silver (Holder) as the best card. Nobody usable for my current roster, and I'm probably going to net less than 500 from auction/auto-sells. I'm cursed, I think.

[Maddox]

I know better than to fall for these posts of lucky pulls and blow all my points on packs.

No, I really do.

[Whoofe]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

The crazy AH and the packs have been kind.

[IMG][/IMG]

some ppl are lucky

and the rest are like me

I still have one gold player. in beta I finally opened my first diamond, about 2 days before the end of the beta lol