I'm sick of Alex Rodriguez.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Think? There are things that are speculation, and there are things that are facts.

Pud Galvin: The Godfather of Juicing | Bleacher Report

USATODAY.com - Former pitcher Tom House describes past steroid use

It is virtually certain that there are already steroids users in the Hall of Fame | HardballTalk

As far as cleaning up the game goes, I have no problem with banning amphetamines and ephedra-related stuff, but I tend to think the result of banning anabolic steroids and HGH will be players taking things that provide similar benefits with greater health risks.

2011, 2005 & 2011. Thats when those stories were written. Prior to that no one with a few exceptions knew what these people were doing. So we are supposed to penalize things we did not know about prior to 3 years ago?
Is the elixir any different then coke in Coca-Cola. Everything was known as an elixir back then. There is no mention on Wikipedia that the Brown-Sequard elixir did anything useful.

[jazzrack]

Originally Posted by The Game

There is no mention on Wikipedia that the Brown-Sequard elixir did anything useful.

that is what german scientists purified into modern testosterone in 1925, they wouldn't have started with that as a base for no reason. yes, modern drugs are more effective, but so are modern training techniques. And the HOF is full to the rafters with cheaters and to try and pretend otherwise is a disservice to both history and the future.

I suppose I have no fundamental problem with saying something like

anybody caught using roids after march 31st 2014 will be banned for life no questions asked

but I do have a problem with the whole baseball world riding on the shoulders of players like barry bonds, cashing checks all along the way, but the second they can cash bigger checks by throwing them under the bus they all pretend ignorance and act all offended

[The Game]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

that is what german scientists purified into modern testosterone in 1925, they wouldn't have started with that as a base for no reason. yes, modern drugs are more effective, but so are modern training techniques. And the HOF is full to the rafters with cheaters and to try and pretend otherwise is a disservice to both history and the future.

I suppose I have no fundamental problem with saying something like



but I do have a problem with the whole baseball world riding on the shoulders of players like barry bonds, cashing checks all along the way, but the second they can cash bigger checks by throwing them under the bus they all pretend ignorance and act all offended

Why should players from the late 80's thru 2013 get a pass? When were steroids an illegal substance in the US? And they have been banned from baseball since 1991. Bonds & Clemens were up for perjury related in part for steroids. No player accused or busted of taking/buying steroids should be in the HOF. I am all for taking out any who have said that they have taken them prior to 1991 or any you have been proven to on them prior to 1991.

[jazzrack]

Originally Posted by The Game

Why should players from the late 80's thru 2013 get a pass? When were steroids an illegal substance in the US? And they have been banned from baseball since 1991. Bonds & Clemens were up for perjury related in part for steroids. No player accused or busted of taking/buying steroids should be in the HOF. I am all for taking out any who have said that they have taken them prior to 1991 or any you have been proven to on them prior to 1991.

because "illegal" is a dangerous thread to start unraveling.

hiring a prostitute is illegal everywhere but a few counties in Nevada. 3/4 of all baseball players are probably now ineligible

cocaine is illegal, so there goes damn near every player from the 60's and 70's

drunk driving is illegal, and frankly far worse than lying about steroid use. how many players have done that over the years.

hell, Ty Cobb killed a man, so out he goes.

history is what was, not what we wish it was. the hall of fame is fundamentally a museum, it should tell a true story of history, not some land of fairies and unicorns version of it.

and because baseball enabled it, they damn well knew it was going on, but the checks were getting fatter and fatter and they kept on cashing them, now after the money is in a swiss bank account they are going to turn snitch and try to just walk away clean.

it's worse than the proverbial "i'm taking a shower, leave the money on the nightstand on your way out"

[jazzrack]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

it's worse than the proverbial "i'm taking a shower, leave the money on the nightstand on your way out"

matter of fact, it's like doing this, then going into the bathroom and calling the cops on the person for hiring you to perform sex for money.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

because "illegal" is a dangerous thread to start unraveling.

hiring a prostitute is illegal everywhere but a few counties in Nevada. 3/4 of all baseball players are probably now ineligible

cocaine is illegal, so there goes damn near every player from the 60's and 70's

drunk driving is illegal, and frankly far worse than lying about steroid use. how many players have done that over the years.

hell, Ty Cobb killed a man, so out he goes.

history is what was, not what we wish it was. the hall of fame is fundamentally a museum, it should tell a true story of history, not some land of fairies and unicorns version of it.

and because baseball enabled it, they damn well knew it was going on, but the checks were getting fatter and fatter and they kept on cashing them, now after the money is in a swiss bank account they are going to turn snitch and try to just walk away clean.

it's worse than the proverbial "i'm taking a shower, leave the money on the nightstand on your way out"

Not one of these ever helped any player hit 70 & 73 homeruns. Steroids did. The rest might have given them a swagger in their step for a game or 2.
They can go into the museum section just not the Hall of Fame section.

[Déjà Bru]

It's all over.

Rodriguez Drops Suits Against Baseball and Union

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

It's all over.

Rodriguez Drops Suits Against Baseball and Union

Maybe the lawsuit's over, but A-Rod's unfortunately not going away any time soon.

[jazzrack]

a movie star dies form a heroin overdose and the media honors them as a tragic case of human failure. the same news media treats steroid users as evil incarnate.

excuse me if I fail to understand the moral stance

[Jason Moyer]

Well, in one case the person is improving themselves, in the other...ok I don't get it either.

[donb036]

I don't like Alex Rodriguez because he's a ****: not because of steroids.

Using steroids is wrong because it's against the rules, but whether or not that should be the rule or if anyone in baseball has any moral high ground to shout from is an entirely different issue I think. (The answer to both is "No")

I think this is similar to the Lance Armstrong deal. The steroids complimented the hard work that both athletes were already doing: they were not a substitute for it. And it's not like either of them were the only people in their respective sports to use steroids regardless.

Officials in cycling and baseball are both eager to denounce Armstrong and Rodriguez, but I'd like to see those same officials give back all of the money that both of those guys earned for them. This cycle, falling in love with an athlete and then using them up, spitting them back out, isn't that different from the way the media treats young Hollywood stars. Except one involves talent and hard work.

The other involves cameras.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by donb036

I don't like Alex Rodriguez because he's a ****: not because of steroids.

This. So much this. I couldn't care less that A-Rod used steroids. If he would stop being such a d-bag about it, own up to it, and get rid of the holier-than-thou, how-dare-you-accuse-me-of-juicing attitude, I wouldn't have a problem with him.

[Orioles1966]

Doesn't A-Rod get back a lot of the money he will miss for being suspended ,once he hit's his 600 th HR?

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

a movie star dies form a heroin overdose and the media honors them as a tragic case of human failure. the same news media treats steroid users as evil incarnate.

excuse me if I fail to understand the moral stance

Overstatement. I originated this thread by saying "I'm sick of Alex Rodriguez" even though (or is it because?) I am a Yankees fan. I'm sick of the stories of his arrogance, his failures in the clutch, his morally outraged act upon being exposed, and especially his selfishness in continuing, after his 2009 confession, to harm the game of Baseball in pursuit of fame and wealth. He is not "evil incarnate." He is a "bad actor" in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Orioles1966

Doesn't A-Rod get back a lot of the money he will miss for being suspended ,once he hit's his 600 th HR?

He gets "$6 million bonuses for tying Mays at 660, Ruth at 714, Aaron at 755, Bonds at 762 and, for his potential record-breaking 763rd career home run, a total of $30 million worth of bonuses" according to mlb.si.com. However, he will have only three years left when he returns in 2015, during which season he will turn 40 years old.

He's at 654 now. He needs 108 more to tie Bonds and make at least $24 million to almost replace the $25 million he is losing in salary for this year. (Regardless, he still loses the $25 million due to the suspension - keep that in mind.)

108 homers averages 36 per season. Will a 40-year-old A-Rod without the benefits of PED (presumably - but don't discount the possibility of his having the arrogance to try getting away with it again) stay healthy and be able to attain this level of production over three years? No, at his age, I doubt he's even going to hit Ruth's level now that one full season is gone from his contract.

So what. Remember, I am a Yankees fan saying this: I don't want to see him hit these home runs, even in pinstripes. After all that has happened, including the lies, I don't care if he breaks the career home run record. No more than I care now about Bonds being the current "record holder."

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by donb036

I don't like Alex Rodriguez because he's a ****: not because of steroids.

Ah, so you weren't one of the vast majority of fans who were rooting for him to break Bonds' career homerun record as recently as 8 years ago?

I wonder whatever happened to those people, anyway.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Ah, so you weren't one of the vast majority of fans who were rooting for him to break Bonds' career homerun record as recently as 8 years ago?

I wonder whatever happened to those people, anyway.

I can't imagine there was alot of people that felt that way. I mean bonds is bonds but when it comes to Arod people have a general dislike for the fellow. Not that he didn't earn it.

As a Yankee fan myself I don't know alot of people who root for him as an individual. I mean like all players on the yankees I hope he does good for the team, but I don't care about his personal achievements.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Ah, so you weren't one of the vast majority of fans who were rooting for him to break Bonds' career homerun record as recently as 8 years ago?

I wonder whatever happened to those people, anyway.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

When he came into the league he was likeable and good player.

He built his reputation as his career progressed.

There are plenty of Professional Players (not just baseball) who start out as very likeable and wind up ruining their reputation as their career progresses.

And no, I'm not one of those who was rooting for him to break records. I form my opinion of athletes on a player by player basis. I like most players starting out, my opinion of them can and has changed as their career progresses. In the case of A-Rod, I enjoyed watching him. Now, I just choose to tune him out.

A lot of people liked Barry Bonds when he started playing. Now not so many do. That doesn't make them bandwagon jumpers in any way, shape or form. It's the same as everyday life. You meet people you like. As time passes they change, and in some cases your opinion of them does too.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Ah, so you weren't one of the vast majority of fans who were rooting for him to break Bonds' career homerun record as recently as 8 years ago?

I wonder whatever happened to those people, anyway.

ARod turned in a more dull player as he turned 30.

He started out as a defensive wizard with extra base power and speed all over the field. The greatest 21-24 year old I had ever seen.

By the time he was lower 30s he became a pull happy home run hitter. He lost his ability to adjust to great pitching and just wasnt the same player. He still put up great numbers but IMO steroids turned him into a worse player.

The other thing is I am sure he lost a lot of fans when he became a Yankee and he lost a lot of fans when he left Seattle in the first place.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

When he came into the league he was likeable and good player.

He built his reputation as his career progressed.

There are plenty of Professional Players (not just baseball) who start out as very likeable and wind up ruining their reputation as their career progresses.

And no, I'm not one of those who was rooting for him to break records. I form my opinion of athletes on a player by player basis. I like most players starting out, my opinion of them can and has changed as their career progresses. In the case of A-Rod, I enjoyed watching him. Now, I just choose to tune him out.

A lot of people liked Barry Bonds when he started playing. Now not so many do. That doesn't make them bandwagon jumpers in any way, shape or form. It's the same as everyday life. You meet people you like. As time passes they change, and in some cases your opinion of them does too.

An interesting post, one that made me revisit my memories.

Jason uses eight years ago as his milepost; that was the beginning of the 2006 season. A-Rod had just completed the first two years of his Yankees contract, averaging 42 homers and 118 RBI's and snagging his second MVP award in 2005.

How did I feel about A-Rod at that point? Look, I don't blow smoke up anybody's rear end when I say that I did not like his acquisition by the Yankees or the contract they gave him. Believe it or not, I don't like championships built on (purchased by) spending piles of money (I used to be "1998 Yankees" here). Still to come was the 10-year monstrosity they gave him at age 31.

But in 2006, we were just winding up the Barry Bonds saga. So did I root for A-Rod to break the records of that character? Sure I did. I cannot remember if there were rumors about A-Rod's PED use but I really hoped like heck he was clean. Stories about his personality were surfacing, but I can root for a pr**k as long as he's a clean pr**k.

Then, a few years later, started the timeline shown below. As Bluenoser said, "as time passes people change, and in some cases your opinion of them does too." Well, in this case, I think it's more accurate that your perception of people's characters changes as time and events reveal them in greater detail.

So, first comes A-Rod's 2009 admission that he used PED's back in 2001-2003. A-Rod was no longer squeaky clean; he was now a member of the McGwire/Sosa/Bonds/Clemens club of cheaters. Did I enjoy the championship that the Yankees won later that year, with A-Rod finally coming through in the postseason? Of course I did but I did not change my identity here to "2009 Yankees" and I never will. A-Rod was already tainted goods in my eyes and I no longer was rooting for him to break any records.

Then comes the nonsense that started a year ago. Slowly, inevitably, it becomes clear that A-ROID HAD GONE BACK TO HIS CHEATING despite the confession and "clean slate" (in many eyes) that he had earned back in 2009. Talk about arrogance. Talk also about disrespect for his fellow players and the game.

That's when I became "sick of Alex Rodriguez" and hence this thread. I am so glad that he is away from the Yankees this season so that we can concentrate on baseball. I am not looking forward to his return in 2015 and, frankly, I wish for either his release or a chronic injury that will end his career. Not a crippling or debilitating one; just an injury that will throw him out of baseball, where he belongs.

Why do I feel this way, this strongly? Because he was a superstar, one of the best, and people need heroes whether it's fair to the players or not. Because he harmed the game that I love and he did so twice, the second time after being given a second chance. Because he LIED, as now must be obvious to all of us. One does not lose an arbitration case like that one and receive a suspension that long and then decide to drop lawsuits that mean giving up on $25 million if one has a leg to stand on.

So if I feel differently about A-Rod than I did eight years ago, I now see why. This post has been cathartic for me, almost like a mental enema. I feel better.

[Déjà Bru]

I have to say, the man can write a nice apology. Read here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...z-apology.html