B-town Boxing: A Heavyweight Universe

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by btown32

Good question. I guess I didn't post my thoughts on that even though I had it in my mind during the draft. A fighter may be released from his contract at anytime, but his points are non-refundable or non-transferable. So, the answer to your question would be no. Sorry.

No problem just wanted to clarify. So would there be any reason to release a fighter then?

[btown32]

Abraham Okine, Ghana, debut vs. Jukebox Timebomb, Zimbabwe, 0-5-0

Alfond Sports Center, Winter Park, FL, USA. Muckboys Promotions continues to pursue champions from all over the world and tonight it will debut three of it’s new signee’s, from Ghana, Germany and Cuba. Muckboys will be having a split event due to the popularity of Cuban sensation, Teofilo Stevenson. The first part of the ‘Global Warming’ card will be held close to base of operations here in Winter Park, FL, while the two other bouts will be held at adjacent, Orlando, FL, in the wide confines of the Amway Arena. Abraham ‘The African Assassin’ Okine is a 6’2”, 245lb, rough and ready brawler that is looking to relegate this Jukebox to the scrap heap. Jukebox Timebomb and Okine have familiarity with each other, having previously sparred together in Africa. Timebomb comes into tonight’s fight with an 0-5-0 mark, losing his first professional fight to the upstart, ‘Nigerian Nightmare,’ Samuel Peter by (TKO4) and his last fight to Jacob Mofokeng (UD10) just last month. Timebomb enters the ring first wearing the colors of Zimbabwe on his trunks. Head Trainer, Ignacio Beristain follows Okine into the red corner as he prepares his fighter for this evening’s bout. Beristain will have his hands full this evening, as he will have to rush over to the other venue in Orlando by helicopter once this fight is over to corner both Max Schmeling and Teofilo Stevenson. The bell sounds and Okine goes to work early outlanding Timebomb by a 4-1 margin in the first. The 2^nd round is a big round for Okine, as he corners his opponent in the blue corner, slips a punch with a head feint and lands a four punch combo to the body. Okine starts to control the 3^rd as he did the first two rounds when all of a sudden, the Jukebox starts playing a sweet melody and unleashes a flurry of punches that pushes Okine back into the ropes. A slow round here in the 4th, as both men tie each other up, looking to catch a breather. Timebomb has developed some swelling that could affect his vision. At the start of the fifth, there is some squealing that can be heard, like the sounds made from the late, great King of Pop on his 'Thriller album, coming out of the Jukebox. Also, some loud-sounding thuds, like a time bomb detonating, as the ‘African Assassin’ lands a huge right cross to the jaw after consecutive body shots that send Timebomb tumbling across the canvas! The only music being heard right now is the ringing of birds and bells in the ears of the Jukebox. ‘The African Assassin’ has completed his contract hit tonight, here in Winter Park, FL, with a huge (KO5) victory at the 1:29 mark of the round.

Winner: Okine
Result: (KO5)
Cards: 38-38, 38-38, 39-37 Okine
Punch stats: Okine 120-259, 46.3% - Timebomb 83-224, 37.1%
TPE: 0.25

[btown32]

Originally Posted by Scoman

No problem just wanted to clarify. So would there be any reason to release a fighter then?

If he does crappy is the only reason that I could see. Technically, no, because there are no situations where you are deducted points. I guess the interest that I saw with having lower level fighters is to see if you could manage him around obstacles and get as many points as possible. I use to have local (sectional titles), for individual countries, but that is a real load to deal with, especially when you guys start to add more fighters. I cannot really see any reasons to deduct points. The time off is a penalty enough for a DQ. The one thing that I have been tinkering with in my mind is that I like to make it real hard to rack up points, so I am thinking of having the TPE being only 1/2 of the points that go into the bank. This would make it more important for the lower level fighter to rack up some wins because even his contribution would go a long ways to signing new fighters to contracts. I think that with three fighters active, the points may accumulate too quickly. I will get back to the promoters/managers about that one (any input - even though I believe that most of you would be against this because, of course, you want to get to the point where you can add better/more fighters to your stable).

[btown32]

Originally Posted by Scoman

Punch stats: Liston 11-11, 100% - Williams 0-0, 0%


Williams didnt even throw a punch,lol,must of had a hot date.

Just like Clottey, his pre-fight dance was the show!

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by btown32

If he does crappy is the only reason that I could see. Technically, no, because there are no situations where you are deducted points. I guess the interest that I saw with having lower level fighters is to see if you could manage him around obstacles and get as many points as possible. I use to have local (sectional titles), for individual countries, but that is a real load to deal with, especially when you guys start to add more fighters. I cannot really see any reasons to deduct points. The time off is a penalty enough for a DQ. The one thing that I have been tinkering with in my mind is that I like to make it real hard to rack up points, so I am thinking of having the TPE being only 1/2 of the points that go into the bank. This would make it more important for the lower level fighter to rack up some wins because even his contribution would go a long ways to signing new fighters to contracts. I think that with three fighters active, the points may accumulate too quickly. I will get back to the promoters/managers about that one (any input - even though I believe that most of you would be against this because, of course, you want to get to the point where you can add better/more fighters to your stable).

Here are some ideas I had,keep in mind just ideas and I wont be offended if you or the group dont like them.


I think the stables should have a max number,say five free slots because you dont want the stables to get out of control because that would add much more work on yourself especially if new people jump in. Then maybe have it cost a certain amount of points to add a slot in your stable like 10 or something .


And How about .25 for Ko or tko win
.20 for win by Unanimous decision
.15 for spliit or maj dec
that way it rewards a ko win

Also how about your fighter would have a 1/3 trade in value, like a 1 would have a .33 trade in value

Point being
I think you should make it harder to accumulate points.


Just some ideas .

[btown32]

Originally Posted by Scoman

Here are some ideas I had,keep in mind just ideas and I wont be offended if you or the group dont like them.


I think the stables should have a max number,say five free slots because you dont want the stables to get out of control because that would add much more work on yourself especially if new people jump in. Then maybe have it cost a certain amount of points to add a slot in your stable like 10 or something .


And How about .25 for Ko or tko win
.20 for win by Unanimous decision
.15 for spliit or maj dec
that way it rewards a ko win

Also how about your fighter would have a 1/3 trade in value, like a 1 would have a .33 trade in value

Point being
I think you should make it harder to accumulate points.


Just some ideas .

I will think about all except the ko win. I have already discussed this issue with another manager/promoter and the name of the game is winning, not about how. It would punish you for having fighters that may be great boxers and can win fights by using technical skill rather than brute force. Mind you, I am a big fan of fighters that create action, swarm and have the power and ability to go for the knockout in real life. It brings an entertainment value to what I am watching. But in sports, and mine is basketball, one of my players would not be rewarded for degree of difficulty or showmanship because two points is two points, be it by a dunk, layup, jumpshot or two free throw. All the points contribute to the win and the successful outcome of the team. I would also equate it to having to pay more in fantasy sports for an Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez or Ryan Howard, because they produce power numbers, and we dont have an adjusted scale to draft or sign fighters, we just go with the ratings as values. It would reward fighting bums, because it would be easier to pick a less quality opponent because you knew that it would be an easy ko win and would give you more points rather than fighting quality. I believe that winning is the number one priority and winning titles is most important that is why there is such an emphasis on high point totals once a fighter can reach the top. I had the max number per stable in effect during the last uni just for that reason of total chaos with too many fighters going at one time. Like the idea of points per slot instead of just points to sign a fighter to a contract. Also, like the idea of a trade in value, sort of like a used car. Definitely good ideas and will think about them. Always good to get other opinions, keep em coming, thanks.

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by btown32

I will think about all except the ko win. I have already discussed this issue with another manager/promoter and the name of the game is winning, not about how. It would punish you for having fighters that may be great boxers and can win fights by using technical skill rather than brute force. It would reward fighting bums, because it would be easier to pick a less quality opponent because you knew that it would be an easy ko win and would give you more points rather than fighting quality. I believe that winning is the number one priority and winning titles is most important that is why there is such an emphasis on high point totals once a fighter can reach the top. I had the max number per stable in effect during the last uni just for that reason of total chaos with too many fighters going at one time. Like the idea of points per slot instead of just points to sign a fighter to a contract. Also, like the idea of a trade in value, sort of like a used car. Definitely good ideas and will think about them. Always good to get other opinion, keep em coming, thanks.

After giving it some more thought,your right,it is ALL about winning,no matter how or why.

[Infinity]

George Foreman will take on Indian Red Allen.

Tom Sharkey will knock the Irish out of Irish Jack O'Dowd

Proud Kilimanjaro will proudly defeat Olubi Severin

[btown32]

Originally Posted by Infinity

George Foreman will take on Indian Red Allen.

Tom Sharkey will knock the Irish out of Irish Jack O'Dowd

Proud Kilimanjaro will proudly defeat Olubi Severin

Indian Red Allen has already signed a contract to fight Jack Dempsey on the 8th of this month.

[btown32]

Max Schmeling, Germany, debut vs. H. Dittmann, Germany, 0-4-0

Amway Arena, Orlando, FL, USA. Part two of the ‘Global Warming’ card comes to you from beautiful, Orlando, FL, in front of a filled to capacity crowd. We see Ignacio Beristain making his way back to the dressing room, escorted by several security personnel. Beristain just cornered Abraham Okine to a wonderful knockout debut in the neighboring city of Winter Park, in the sports complex at Rollins College. Muckboys Promotions decided to fly Schmeling over from Germany to have him fight in the states for his introduction to the American press and fight fans. A good deal of thought was put into whether MBP should let him fight in front of his home crowd in Germany, but a twin bill card with Teofilo Stevenson was deemed a better option. ‘The Black Uhlan’ is a marvelously skilled, all-around boxer, with skills to keep the fight at a distance or pressuring and infighting to the body. Schmeling will be taking on fellow German, H. Dittmann here tonight. Dittmann enters the ring with a 0-4-0 record, fighting locally against Haymann, Roth, Flint and Kohlbrecher. Dittmann last fought on 1979-11-09, losing by (UD10) to Kohlbrecher in Oberhausen, Germany. Schmeling enters the ring in tip-top condition, not an ounce of fat to be seen on his 6’1”, 185lb, body. Schmeling receives last minute instructions from Beristain before the start of the fight. We have a star-studded front row of high-profile, German superstars here to witness the debut of Schmeling. I can see tennis great, Boris Becker with his entire family, skating and Olympic legend, Katarina Witt, glamorous fashion model, Heidi Klum, and NBA superstar, Dirk Nowitski, who is in town with his Dallas Mavericks to take on the Orlando Magic tomorrow night. The bell sounds, and here we go. Schmeling starts the fight by pressuring Dittmann into the ropes and lands a nice uppercut followed by a two punch combination. Dittmann counters and gets the fight back into the center of the ring. Schmeling doubles Dittmann’s punch output for the initial round. Dittman immediately gets caught in the corner again and takes a right cross to the head that opens a bad cut. Dittmann only lands one punch that round and is looking in bad shape to end the 2^nd round. Schmeling forces his way inside in the 4^th and an uppercut opens a second cut, this one to the lip of Dittmann. Blood is now pouring from a cut above the right eye and lip of Dittmann. Rounds 5 and 6 both go to ‘The Black Uhlan’ as he puts constant pressure on Dittmann, not allowing any space or distance between the two fighters. Dittmann has to be given credit for lasting this long. Schmeling continues to walk down his opponent, raining down punches to every part of Dittmann’s body. Schmeling is just treating Dittmann like a punching bag. The referee stops the action and calls for the ringside doctor to look at all the damage accumulated by Dittmann in this fight. The fight has been waved off and Max Schmeling successfully begins his career with a (TKO7) at the 2:25 mark of the round.

Winner: Schmeling
Result: (TKO7)
Cards: 60-54, on all three cards in favor of Schmeling
Punch stats: Schmeling 291-424, 68.6% - Dittmann 54-207, 26.1%
TPE: 0.25

[btown32]

Teofilo Stevenson, Cuba, debut vs. Don Juan, Cuba, debut

Amway Arena, Orlando, FL, USA. A huge Cuban contingent is in the stands as the anticipation of the main event is now upon us. Nobody could have ever expected that long-time, amateur and Olympic Champion, Teofilo Stevenson would ever even be making a professional boxing debut not to mention having it in the United States! The Latino fan base here in Florida has taken over the entire arena. There is dancing, cheering and all kinds of festivities that are creating such a wonderful atmosphere for a featured fight. We had to give out over 20 credentials alone to the Cuban press. Cuban flags and banners are all over the arena…oh my, look at that young lady…boy she sure is proud of her country...and I am suddenly a true believer in Communism and the Cubano way! Let us not forget that another fine prospect is here representing Havana, Cuba, and that is Don Juan, who is also making his pro boxing debut. Juan is originally from Cuba, but now resides in Medina, OH, USA. Don Juan makes his entrance as two other Cuban fighters take their seats in the front row for the featured, main event. Stevenson is last into the ring. Teo comes into the fight after concluding a hard training camp with trainer, Ignacio Beristain. Stevenson has weighed in at 210lbs, well dispersed over his 6’5” frame. Gloria Estefan gives a remarkable rendition of the Cuban and American National Anthems. Stevenson doesn’t waste any time getting down to business and unwinds his long, hard jab in the face of Juan. Don Juan is unable to get inside of Stevenson’s long reach and cannot get any offense started. Stevenson catches Juan leaning down as he tries to sneak inside of a punch and catches him flush with a right uppercut. Down goes Juan. Juan is able to get up but cannot defend himself and the referee stops the fight at the 1:39 mark of round two.

Winner: Stevenson
Result: (TKO2)
Cards: 10-9, all three cards in favor of Stevenson
Punch stats: Stevenson 65-141, 46.1% - Juan 17-36, 47.2%
TPE: 0.25

[Infinity]

Originally Posted by btown32

Indian Red Allen has already signed a contract to fight Jack Dempsey on the 8th of this month.

Oops I missed that. George will take on Ali "He-Man" Gipson then to prove who the real "He-Man" is.

[btown32]

Danny McAlinden, Northern Ireland, debut vs. Slammin’ Sammy Scaff, USA, 1-0-0

Washington Avenue Armory, Albany, NY, USA. East Coast Gladiators decides to expand its hand-to-hand combat division by adding a trio of fine boxers to its stable. ECG has already established itself in MMA and Pro Wrestling, but looks to promote and market the big boy division around its home state of New York. Legendary trainer, Cus D’Amato has kept his three young fighters, Danny McAlinden, John L. Sullivan and Mike Tyson, under wraps in Catskill, NY, away from the Paparazzi and press. ‘Dangerous’ Danny is a highly regarded, prize fighter with a very nice following back home. In fact, we have some raucous fans here in the seats tonight waving banners and flying the colors or their homeland. Some famous faces litter the crowd, including Kenneth Branaugh and Liam Neeson, two fine actors that have taken time off from the bright stages of Broadway, to show support for the fighter from their homeland. The 6’1” McAlinden weighed in for the fight at 195lbs, while his opponent, Slammin’ Sammy Scaff comes in at 6’5” and a whopping 245lbs. Scaff could have easily rehydrated and added at least ten pounds since last night. ECG must really have confidence in it’s fighter because he is in tough tonight for his professional debut. Scaff is not only a beast of a man, he is undefeated, winning his first fight (UD10) on 1979-07-13 against Ole Anderson under the bright lights of Las Vegas. An action-packed first round, as McAlinden draws first blood from a cut to the inside brow of the right eye of Scaff. Both sluggers are letting it all hang loose here in the second as this round will be very hard to judge. Scaff is warned about holding and listens to the referee as he lets his hands loose all over McAlinden in a big third for Slammin’ Sammy. Scaff is all over McAlinden again in the fourth, landing heavy blows and backing his opponent up against the ropes. Scaff seems to be in control of this fight at the moment. Dangerous Danny goes to work on Scaff’s cut and the doctor has to be called ringside to take a look…the fight is allowed to continue here in the 5th. McAlinden just cannot keep his distance as Scaff continues to lean on Danny with all of his 245lbs. McAlinden looks exhausted here and Slammin’ Sammy is doing as his nickname describes. Round 7 is in the books, another round to the American, and I would have to say that I believe that McAlinden may need a knockout to win his debut fight tonight. Scaff continues where he left off from the last round but gets careless and is hammered by a left cross that sends him realing to the canvas! What a beautiful shot, this has completely shocked the entire crowd! Scaff gets up at the count of six. Dangerous Danny pounces again and a short cross sends Scaff landing face first at McAlinden’s feet. Scaff barely makes it to his feet, bloody from his re-opened cut, to end the round as the momentum of this fight has completely changed. D’Amato is urging his charge on, to take advantage of Scaff inability to clear the cobwebs during the one-minute break. Both fighters look tired, but the last round has both fighters going in separate directions; Scaff completely deflated and dazed, while McAlinden is energized and revitalized from the possibility of salvaging what could have been a disastrous debut. Danny listens to his corner and traps Scaff in the corner. A couple of well placed shots to the eye, reopens the cut and the ringside doctor has to be summoned back up to the ring. That is it, the fight has been stopped! What a turn of events. Dangerous Danny McAlinden has won this fight by (TKO9) at the 0:44 second mark of the round.

Winner: McAlinden
Result: (TKO9)
Cards: 75-74 Scaff, 75-74 McAlinden, 76-73 McAlinden - the 8th round scored 10-6 for McAlinden OAC.
Punch stats: McAlinden 175-314, 55.7% - Scaff 255-689, 37%
TPE: 0.25

[btown32]

Originally Posted by Infinity

George Foreman will take on Indian Red Allen.

Tom Sharkey will knock the Irish out of Irish Jack O'Dowd

Proud Kilimanjaro will proudly defeat Olubi Severin

I thought you might have also said, "scalp" Indian Red Allen, but I guess GGP wanted to stay politically correct.

[btown32]

Nobody else wanted to change to Communism, huh? Very surprised!

[btown32]

John L. Sullivan, USA, debut vs. Ron Howard, USA, debut

Rensselaer Houston Fieldhouse, Troy, NY, USA. East Coast Gladiators brings it’s other two fighters north, to Troy, NY, to introduce them to the fight game. A sold-out crowd is here to see if ‘The Boston Strongboy’ can live up to the hype, nickname and expectations brought here from Roxbury, MA. A strange setting has formed here, with players from both the New England Patriots and New York Jets in attendance. Both teams will face each other in a NFL playoff game this weekend and a bunch of the Patriots are here to support their local pugilist. I believe that the Jets players are here for the main event, featuring one of the most anticipated debuts in New York history. Sullivan is a heavy-handed slugger, standing 5’10 ½” and tipping the scales at 211lbs, with electrifying finishing power. His nickname is a very fair description of what he brings to the table. His opponent tonight, is a native from Seattle, WA, weighing in at 207lbs even for the fight. Both Howard and Sullivan are making their pro debuts tonight in front of our sold out arena. The ‘Strongboy’ comes out and imposes his will from the start but is taken aback by the countering from Howard. Howards punches just do not carry the same amount of steam as Sullivan’s and his output is few and far between. A hard cross puts Howard down once, and again in the second round. Both times Howard is able to recover to his feet, but after more abuse and his inability to defend himself, the referee in charge has no choice but to stop the fight at the 2:04 mark of the 2nd round. John L. Sullivan successfully debuts with a (TKO2).

Winner: John L. Sullivan
Result: (TKO2)
Cards: 10-9, on all three cards in favor of Sullivan
Punch stats: Sullivan 56-197, 28.4% - Howard 19-40, 47.5%
TPE: 0.25

[btown32]

*Knockdown suffered regardless of outcome/result of fight = mandatory one week rest time per knockdown added to length of time between next bout.


Like this idea, stolen from aaaaaaaaaa's management uni rules.

[btown32]

Thinking about adding a Scoman Amendment.

A slot for a new contract signee would cost 10 for the slot plus the amount to sign the fighter. This help to make points hard to come by.

And thinking of a percentage of points reimbursed to trade-in a fighter. It would allow a stable to eventually get rid of the 1's & 2's to trade up for a newer, luxury model. Why not just keep him, because there would be a max number of fighters per stable for length of universe and a max number of fighters allowed per region like my last uni. Probably max 3 per region (CABO, EBU, ICBA, USBA).

Just thinking...please take a look at the new addition to fight results/time off between next fight. Stole it, but like it.

[btown32]

Mike Tyson, USA, debut vs. Roy Edge, USA, debut

Rensselaer Houston Fieldhouse, Troy, NY, USA. And now to the event that has even me excited. The introduction of a fighter that has captivated the fight circle because of the power that he possesses and has displayed in his short amateur career. Are you speaking of Roy Edge? Not to offend Mr. Edge, the touted 210lb prospect out of Jacksonville, FL, but no. I am speaking of a young man that has started to develop a cult following due to his propensity to destroy opponents in one round. Cus D’Amato has accepted this kid from the youth authority and juvenile halls and brought him into his own home in Catskill, NY. Mike Tyson is undergoing character treatment under Cus’ tutelage, while also learning the fine points of the sport of boxing. D’Amato is not shy about telling the world that he believes that Tyson will become the youngest heavyweight champion of the world if he is able to avoid the self-destructive path that has plagued him throughout his short life. The dedication is evident in the ring and during training sessions, but the discipline outside of the ring for the other 21 hours of the day is what has everybody worried. Mike Tyson is an imposing figure, due to his well-developed musculature and the ferocity and indifference that he displays towards his opponents in the ring. Tyson weighed in at 213 lbs and stands 5’10” tall. That kids neck may be bigger than my waist! We have more stars filing into the front doors…one of my favorites is in attendance over there. Yeah, I like Jay-Z too. Wha-who! No, I am talking about who Mr.Z is with. What a lovely creature God has blessed us with, hope my wife isn’t watching the broadcast. Word must have spread quickly because Spike Lee has made it to ringside even though his beloved Knicks are playing tonight. Well…who would you rather watch, especially given the fact that my goddess, I mean the goddess is here too. Oh enough already! Some other fighters are here in attendance, but I can’t quite tell who that is over there. Do you know who that is? I heard he is a young, heavyweight out of Ohio, that’s about it. Well I doubt he is of much significance if I haven’t heard of him. The bell sounds for the beginning of the fight. Tyson lands a combination to Edge’ jaw and down he goes. Edge is on his feet at four, but I would say “that he is standing on the edge of a cliff with nowhere to go and nowhere to hide.” Tyson lands a wicked cross followed by an uppercut that snaps Edge’s head back violently. Tyson delivered some big hurt with that punch, even the fans at ringside felt it! Tyson triples up on the hook and the ref stops the fight as he catches Edge falling towards him. Mike Tyson does not fail to live up to his press clippings tonight as he pushes Roy off the edge at the 2:52 mark of the opening round.

Winner: Tyson
Result: (TKO1)
Cards: N/A
Punch stats: Tyson 36-78, 46.2% - Edge 16-37, 43.2%
TPE: 0.25

[btown32]

It was suggested to me by SAL/Scot, to try to send the dat.files to everyone to lessen the burden and it is run that way in the UTBA. I decided against it because I don't like to give away all the information. However, I think I will try it one time after all the fights are done in January. I will need everyone to send me (pm me here on the forum board) their email address so that I can send the files. Here is some other info that I would like to mention.

I do not claim to be a rater of fighter files. When I first purchased 2.0, I took the time to individually rate to the best of my abilities (which was terrible) with even the tomato cans. As I grew wiser, I started to mass produce files for regions and countries that were either unpopulated or underpopulated. These are not expert ratings, just fillers to make the game more enjoyable. Also, my fictional fighters usually mirror a chosen, existing fighter. When I first started created my fictional fighters, I would just choose who I thought they closely resembled, as far as traits go, and changed the name and character info.

When importing, the birth countries, trainers and cutmen will alter. It will be completely different than what is in my db because of the change in slots due to added/new names added to each category.

I have over 100 groups. This may look crazy to some, but it provides me with a good cross section and allows me the ability to delete a single file that may have a bug that infects my database. Those of you who have experienced this may understand my plight. I have had to hand check thousands individually a couple of times just to delete one file. This happened earlier with the Savon file if people remember.

This will be an experiment and I will see how it goes to see if I want to continue sending the dat.files out every time a new month comes up in the universe. I am assuming everyone knows what to do but if not, just create a new empty database, titled anything you want and then just open the zip file to the saved games folder. Rename the individual game to the name that you created the new empty database and all the info should show up.

This will give all of you a look into how I sort my database and it will allow you to scout all the fighters in the universe. After you unzip the files, please take a look, decide and inform me of who you would like to match your fighters against for their next fights.

Again, this is what I am in the process of thinking about for the next month in the universe.

I have had a request for my entire db, and I would like to share any info that I have to make this a better gaming experience. By sending out the dat.files to everyone, it would make it so that there wouldnt be an unfair advantage and I could respond to the request.

Just thinking out loud again. Don't hold me to this yet.