Questionable AI decisions

[ra7c7er]

Just because the AI is making moves you wouldn't doesn't mean the AI is "wrong"

----

Nearly every sports sim game (including console games) has a offensive AI focus and they always will. Because the AI isn't trying to stop points from being scored. It's trying to score one more point then it's opponent. The AI has to take way more into account when making moves then a human player does because the AI has to always try and remain competitive both offensive and defensively at all times.

A human player says "ok I can bring in my better defensive guy because I'm up by three" and he wins the game he says "I'm a genius my decision was right" but if it happens with the AI and then a pitcher blows up and they wind up losing the game the human player says the AI should have never made that move in the first place. The AI always is bound to take everything into consideration in player moves because the ultimate goal of the AI is to win.

[MKG1734]

I have a question that I'm going to pose in this thread since I don't want to start a new thread in this forum.

I am playing as GM of the Chicago Cubs in my game. My season is into September and I am curious about how the lineup is constructed by the AI.

If more information is needed, please let me know and I will happily post it but I'll start with what seems to be the most pertinent information.

Settings:
Mostly default except for player evaluation which is set at 5/62/22/11. With regard to this setting, it should be noted that changing to anything really seems to have zero effect on the lineup that the AI plays. Also, Sabermetric lineup selection is chosen.
Player Morale: OFF
Player Personality: OFF

Now...to the question at hand (I will post screen shots if necessary but didn't feel like flooding the thread with screen shots for this post):

After some injuries through the year (none that changed ratings in any way), and some promotions from AAA, here are the important notes:

With these three players currently fully healthy and on the roster:

Addison Russell:
GS: 68
AVG: .314
OBP: .372
SLG: .491
WAR: 2.9
Fielding: +1.8 ZR at 2B in 37 GS, +0.8 ZR at SS in 26 GS

Ratings:
Con: 60/75
Gap: 70/75
HR: 50/65
Eye: 45/60
AvoidK: 55/60
Overall / Potential: 47/71

Fielding:
2B: 70
SS: 60
Range: 65
Error: 70
Arm: 70
DP: 60

---------------------

Javier Baez:
GS: 51
AVG: .265
OBP: .310
SLG: .451
WAR: 1.6
Fielding: +2.7 ZR at 2B in 40 GS, +0.1 ZR at SS in 1 GS

Ratings:
Con: 45/55
Gap: 50/60
HR: 65/75
Eye: 45/50
AvoidK: 30/35
Overall / Potential: 45/67

Fielding:
2B: 65
SS: 60
3B: 65
Range: 65
Error: 60
Arm: 70
DP: 65

---------------------

Arismendy Alcantara:
GS: 85
AVG: .283
OBP: .340
SLG: .467
WAR: 1.8
Fielding: +1.9 ZR at 2B in 20 GS, -2.0 ZR at 3B in 15 GS, -1.0 ZR at SS in 2 GS

Ratings:
Con: 50/55
Gap: 70/70
HR: 55/55
Eye: 40/55
AvoidK: 45/45
Overall / Potential: 48/58

Fielding:
2B: 55
SS: 45
3B: 30
CF: 55
INF Range: 60
INF Error: 55
INF Arm: 65
DP: 60

---------------------

Now.... the AI lineup:
Baez: SS
Alcantara: 2B
Russell: Bench

My question is why? Meaning ... what metric is the AI measuring these players to position them like this?

By essentially every metric (both stats, offensive and defensive ratings) Russell is a superior player in this sim than both Baez and Alcantara.

So ... why is the lineup set without Russell playing?

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I have a question that I'm going to pose in this thread since I don't want to start a new thread in this forum.

I am playing as GM of the Chicago Cubs in my game. My season is into September and I am curious about how the lineup is constructed by the AI.

If more information is needed, please let me know and I will happily post it but I'll start with what seems to be the most pertinent information.

Settings: Mostly default except for player evaluation which is set at 5/62/22/11. With regard to this setting, it should be noted that changing to anything really seems to have zero effect on the lineup that the AI plays. Also, Sabermetric lineup selection is chosen.

Now...to the question at hand (I will post screen shots if necessary but didn't feel like flooding the thread with screen shots for this post):

After some injuries through the year (none that changed ratings in any way), and some promotions from AAA, here are the important notes:

With these three players currently fully healthy and on the roster:

Addison Russell:
GS: 68
AVG: .314
OBP: .372
SLG: .491
WAR: 2.9
Fielding: +1.8 ZR at 2B in 37 GS, +0.8 ZR at SS in 26 GS

Ratings:
Con: 60/75
Gap: 70/75
HR: 50/65
Eye: 45/60
AvoidK: 55/60
Overall / Potential: 47/71

Fielding:
2B: 70
SS: 60
Range: 65
Error: 70
Arm: 70
DP: 60

---------------------

Javier Baez:
GS: 51
AVG: .265
OBP: .310
SLG: .451
WAR: 1.6
Fielding: +2.7 ZR at 2B in 40 GS, +0.1 ZR at SS in 1 GS

Ratings:
Con: 45/55
Gap: 50/60
HR: 65/75
Eye: 45/50
AvoidK: 30/35
Overall / Potential: 45/67

Fielding:
2B: 65
SS: 60
3B: 65
Range: 65
Error: 60
Arm: 70
DP: 65

---------------------

Arismendy Alcantara:
GS: 85
AVG: .283
OBP: .340
SLG: .467
WAR: 1.8
Fielding: +1.9 ZR at 2B in 20 GS, -2.0 ZR at 3B in 15 GS, -1.0 ZR at SS in 2 GS

Ratings:
Con: 50/55
Gap: 70/70
HR: 55/55
Eye: 40/55
AvoidK: 45/45
Overall / Potential: 48/58

Fielding:
2B: 55
SS: 45
3B: 30
CF: 55
INF Range: 60
INF Error: 55
INF Arm: 65
DP: 60

---------------------

Now.... the AI lineup:
Baez: SS
Alcantara: 2B
Russell: Bench

My question is why? Meaning ... what metric is the AI measuring these players to position them like this?

By essentially every metric (both stats, offensive and defensive ratings) Russell is a superior player in this sim than both Baez and Alcantara.

So ... why is the lineup set without Russell playing?

Fatigue? Lefty or righty starter against? Minor injury? Personality clash with manager?

Is this a common occurrence, or is it just for one game? You've provided a ton of information, yes -- but some is still incomplete.

With sabermetric lineup selected, I'm going to guess its a pitcher-handedness issue, but it could be many different things.

[MKG1734]

Personality: OFF (FWIW from the scouting reports screen, Russell's personality: "baseball rat", Baez's personality: "pretty much all about his numbers)
Fatigue: All 100% rested
Injuries: All 100% healthy

This is the lineup for EVERY game

With Sabermetric, the advantage HEAVILY favors Russell over Baez vs RHP (which is the lineup in question)

Baez vs RHP (20-80 scale):
CON: 45
GAP: 50
POW: 65
EYE: 45
Avoid K: 30

Russell vs RHP:
CON: 60
GAP: 65
POW: 50
EYE: 45
Avoid K: 55

but it could be many different things

That's the point of my post ... what are these many things? There seems to be zero reason for this lineup setting. I certainly cannot rationalize one.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

That's the point of my post ... what are these many things? There seems to be zero reason for this lineup setting. I certainly cannot rationalize one.

What is your managers personality and style, just curious? Maybe he's a smallball manager and Alcantara is a better bunter... maybe the manager prefers veterans over younger players.

Maybe the manager is trying to keep Baez's significantly more powerful bat in the lineup? What role is each expecting? If it is the first season of your dynasty, maybe both Baez and Alcantara are expecting to be starters... I know personality is off but I think expected role would come into play as far as your manager goes.

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

What is your managers personality and style, just curious? Maybe he's a smallball manager and Alcantara is a better bunter... maybe the manager prefers veterans over younger players.

Maybe the manager is trying to keep Baez's significantly more powerful bat in the lineup? What role is each expecting? If it is the first season of your dynasty, maybe both Baez and Alcantara are expecting to be starters... I know personality is off but I think expected role would come into play as far as your manager goes.

Manager: Joe Maddon
Personality: OFF (fwiw, personable)
Style: Sabermetric
Sac Bunts: Rarely
Favor L/R Matchups: Quite Often (nearly blue setting, this also favors Russell)
Stealing: Above average (favors Russell)
Aggressive Baserunning: Quite Often (favors Russell)

I know personality is off but I think expected role would come into play as far as your manager goes

Fwiw:
Baez: Expects to be bench player
Russell: Expects to be in starting lineup

maybe the manager prefers veterans over younger players

"Maddon prefers younger players to veterans"

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Manager: Joe Maddon
Personality: OFF (fwiw, personable)
Style: Sabermetric
Sac Bunts: Rarely
Favor L/R Matchups: Quite Often (nearly blue setting, this also favors Russell)
Stealing: Above average (favors Russell)
Aggressive Baserunning: Quite Often (favors Russell)



Fwiw:
Baez: Expects to be bench player
Russell: Expects to be in starting lineup


"Maddon prefers younger players to veterans"

Last question. What is the expected position for all three players? The only thing I can really see so far is the power thing...

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

Last question. What is the expected position for all three players? The only thing I can really see so far is the power thing...

All 3 are 2B ... the AI boots SS Starlin Castro to the bench

FWIW, Starlin Castro:

GS: 115
AVG: .283
OBP: .347
SLG: .415
WAR: 3.9
Fielding: +5.8 ZR, 115 GS at SS

Ratings:
Con: 65/70
Gap: 70/70
HR: 45/45
Eye: 40/45
AvoidK: 60/65
Overall / Potential: 52/58

Fielding:
SS: 50
Range: 60
Error: 60
Arm: 70
DP: 50

[ezpkns34]

What are the 3 players in question's batting stats vs righties?

[The Game]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I have a question that I'm going to pose in this thread since I don't want to start a new thread in this forum.

I am playing as GM of the Chicago Cubs in my game. My season is into September and I am curious about how the lineup is constructed by the AI.

If more information is needed, please let me know and I will happily post it but I'll start with what seems to be the most pertinent information.

Settings:
Mostly default except for player evaluation which is set at 5/62/22/11. With regard to this setting, it should be noted that changing to anything really seems to have zero effect on the lineup that the AI plays. Also, Sabermetric lineup selection is chosen.
Player Morale: OFF
Player Personality: OFF

Now...to the question at hand (I will post screen shots if necessary but didn't feel like flooding the thread with screen shots for this post):

After some injuries through the year (none that changed ratings in any way), and some promotions from AAA, here are the important notes:

With these three players currently fully healthy and on the roster:

Addison Russell:
GS: 68
AVG: .314
OBP: .372
SLG: .491
WAR: 2.9
Fielding: +1.8 ZR at 2B in 37 GS, +0.8 ZR at SS in 26 GS

Ratings:
Con: 60/75
Gap: 70/75
HR: 50/65
Eye: 45/60
AvoidK: 55/60
Overall / Potential: 47/71

Fielding:
2B: 70
SS: 60
Range: 65
Error: 70
Arm: 70
DP: 60

---------------------

Javier Baez:
GS: 51
AVG: .265
OBP: .310
SLG: .451
WAR: 1.6
Fielding: +2.7 ZR at 2B in 40 GS, +0.1 ZR at SS in 1 GS

Ratings:
Con: 45/55
Gap: 50/60
HR: 65/75
Eye: 45/50
AvoidK: 30/35
Overall / Potential: 45/67

Fielding:
2B: 65
SS: 60
3B: 65
Range: 65
Error: 60
Arm: 70
DP: 65

---------------------

Arismendy Alcantara:
GS: 85
AVG: .283
OBP: .340
SLG: .467
WAR: 1.8
Fielding: +1.9 ZR at 2B in 20 GS, -2.0 ZR at 3B in 15 GS, -1.0 ZR at SS in 2 GS

Ratings:
Con: 50/55
Gap: 70/70
HR: 55/55
Eye: 40/55
AvoidK: 45/45
Overall / Potential: 48/58

Fielding:
2B: 55
SS: 45
3B: 30
CF: 55
INF Range: 60
INF Error: 55
INF Arm: 65
DP: 60

---------------------

Now.... the AI lineup:
Baez: SS
Alcantara: 2B
Russell: Bench

My question is why? Meaning ... what metric is the AI measuring these players to position them like this?

By essentially every metric (both stats, offensive and defensive ratings) Russell is a superior player in this sim than both Baez and Alcantara.

So ... why is the lineup set without Russell playing?

Does Maddon prefer vets over youngsters? I know Alcantara is only in his 2nd year but Russell is a rookie. Where's Castro?

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

What are the 3 players in question's batting stats vs righties?

Hah...boy am I glad you asked:

Alcantara: 322 Plate App., .282 - .332 - .480
Baez: 203 Plate App., .228 - .266 - .394
Russell: 243 Plate App., .330 - .374 .542

Now ... back to my original question .... WHY is the AI making this decision?!

Keep in mind, the settings are:
Ratings: 5%
Current Year Stats: 62%
Prior Year Stats: 22%
2 Years Ago Stats: 11%

But, keep in mind, no matter what I change this to ... the lineup is unaffected.

Does Maddon prefer vets over youngsters? I know Alcantara is only in his 2nd year but Russell is a rookie. Where's Castro?

No, and Castro's stats/ratings are mentioned above and he has been pushed to the bench (in case you missed it, both of these topics are mentioned above)

Note* Castro was pushed to the bench despite playing well even though "stats" are the major part of AI evaluation (see stats)

[jaysdailydose]

The overall ratings are very close and it seems to me he wants Baez's power in the lineup. I didn't think the vets/rookies would mean a whole lot, because they are all young -- and actually that fits with them moving Castro to the bench.

It looks to me as if they want the most power potential in the lineup.

By the overall ratings (and you do have the 5 in your AI evaluation) its actually a really, really close decision. Could it be a little wonky? Yeah, but I think I probably write it off to manager preference of the players, even though you have Personality off, there are still going to be players that your AI manager is going to prefer over others, even when it seems to make little sense.

Again, not saying it might not be a little wonky -- but it is close as far as ratings go.

[jaysdailydose]

One last thing, though. Don't Baez and Alcantara both have 2014 stats at the MLB level? (Forgive me, not a big Cubbies guy) If they were solid the year before, that could also be the 22 in your last year's weight coming through as well.

[MKG1734]

One last thing, though. Don't Baez and Alcantara both have 2014 stats at the MLB level? (Forgive me, not a big Cubbies guy) If they were solid the year before, that could also be the 22 in your last year's weight coming through as well.

Yes. They were both exceptionally awful.

By the overall ratings (and you do have the 5 in your AI evaluation) its actually a really, really close decision

When this is changed from 5 to 0 .... the lineup does not change.

Hell ... when it is changed to ANYTHING, it does not change. This, itself, makes me wonder if this setting actually doesn't do anything aside from change the headline ratings (but actually has zero effect on AI) ... I'm not claiming this as fact...but it does make me wonder..

Could it be a little wonky? Yeah

Frankly, its extremely frustrating that you spend several hours doing something and attempt to set a game up to 'maximize' the OOTP AI in order to get a quality result and this is what you are stuck with ...

You ask the AI to base the evaluation on 'stats' (and even if you ask it based on ratings or even 100% stats... NOTHING CHANGES!) ... and you get an AI playing a clearly inferior hitter with horrific stats (especially against RHP) over a clearly superior hitter with exceptional stats (especially against RHP) when both players are essentially equal fielders.

Total hitting points (total of current ratings for offense)
Russell: 280 (56 average on an 80 scale)
Baez: 235 (47 average on an 80 scale)

With the statistics more than bearing this out.

Frustrated spender of $40 and hours of time feeling more than wasted : /

Any thoughts on how to help avoid such nonsense?

[jaysdailydose]

When you are changing those settings, are you running a rescout in the options menu?

Also, what are your scouting and coaching settings set to, if you don't mind?

Please, if you're going to quote me as you did above, don't cut off half of my quote which was extremely pertinent.

[jaysdailydose]

The situation above can be boiled down to a manager wanting the most powerful player in his lineup and then wanting a backup shortstop who isn't below average at the position. Alcantara can't play SS very well, if you play Russell at second.

I actually just thought of something, too. Since you are using AI evaluation, are you having it evaluate by positions or across all positions? Remember, the listed OVR and POT may be at 2B as you've said all three players expect to be second basemen.

I actually think this may be your problem. If I use ratings, I always evaluate across all positions. As of right now, I'm thinking that Alcantara is your highest rated second baseman, and Baez is probably ACTUALLY your highest rated shortstop, but you're seeing what he is rated as a second baseman.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

Hire an ai manager?

I don't think you can when playing GM/Manager mode.

[MKG1734]

When you are changing those settings, are you running a rescout in the options menu? Also, what are your scouting and coaching settings set to, if you don't mind? Please, if you're going to quote me as you did above, don't cut off half of my quote which was extremely pertinent.

Rescout: Yes
Scouting: Very High
Quote: I understand that it was pertinent ... but not to my reply. Bc it is wonky.

The situation above can be boiled down to a manager wanting the most powerful player in his lineup and then wanting a backup shortstop who isn't below average at the position. Alcantara can't play SS very well, if you play Russell at second.

No. Starlin Castro is the backup SS in that situation (not Alcantara) ... who also played at an All-Star caliber (see stats, again)

I actually just thought of something, too. Since you are using AI evaluation, are you having it evaluate by positions or across all positions? Remember, the listed OVR and POT may be at 2B as you've said all three players expect to be secondbasemen.

Across all positions


And it is a big deal ...
I mean, is it just a game? Yes. But...when the game sells itself as being 'realistic' and the forum members claim it works properly ... and it doesn't ... its frustrating.

Below is a screen shot of how the above decision can completely affect the outcome of a lot of time put into a game.

I've simmed forward since (since my original post [the stats continued to be essentially the same as noted above]) and am now in a 1-game wild-card playoff with Pittsburgh.

My team is squaring off against Gerrit Cole.
We can see that Alcantara is at 2B with Baez at SS (hitting against a RHP, where we can see his stats for the season: .228 - .266 -. 394)

In the bottom of the 2nd I have runners on 2nd and 3rd with zero outs with Baez stepping to the plate.

Predictably, Cole K'd him up on 3 pitches (see screenshot).

Frustratingly, if the game had performed even somewhat like it was put into a position to, Baez would not be batting (or even playing) in this situation.

Keep in mind ... its not that I even CARE about a win or loss. I really don't even care.

What I want is for the game to produce a similar and realistic feel to what someone would expect to happen in the game, today. Because that would then mimic a realistic opportunity to watch a win or loss as the game would be played today. This is essentially what OOTP sells itself as.

And taking the time up to read through dozens of threads / posts / and watch people critique one way of doing something vs. another (when, even changing these settings does NOTHING), only to watch the game perform 'wonky' (all the time, and not my word) is extremely frustrating.

[jaysdailydose]

I usually never play MLB games, but I think you may have inspired me to play one this year, just to see what I see on the level with you.

I generally watch/manage all of my games, but I'll just play GM Only so I can see what the manager I choose does.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

I did notice in prior versions that if I had myself as the only manager, and didn't adjust the majority of strategy, I'd have some wonky things happen.

Now, I would chalk it up to an unproven manager if you are in GM+manager. Not saying this is it... but could be.

I changed the in game strategy to the preset "sabermetric".