2005 New York Yankees Official Thread

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

From a "diversity" stand point, you'd have to throw the Braves into that bunch too.

That is true, but they don't spend the way Boston and New York do.

Besides, at the begining of the year I predicted Florida to win the east.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

We can quibble over these guys all day long, but seriously - if you're Milwaukee or Pittsburgh or Kansas City and just desperate for a warm body to throw out there until you've got a prospect who's ready to go at the major league level, then I could see having Womack around. He's one of those basically useless replacement-level guys whose versatility makes him.... well, slightly better than replacement-level guys without versatility.

But starting? In left field? For the team with double the payroll of the other big-market teams? I mean, paying guys like Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson insane money in the hope they won't suddenly look old is a calculated gamble, and one the Yankees can afford. Thanks to the Yankees' innovation in this area, big market teams are increasing making these kinds of gambles. (See Steve Finley deal with the Angels, etc.) But Womack is not a calculated gamble - it's just a very, very stupid move. The Yankees can afford to absorb the monetary cost of signing Womack... but they cannot afford the cost in wins of actually putting him out there on the field.

[Joshv02]

Originally Posted by MrWorkrate

So yeah, Dellucci I wish we had back, but outside of that, I think there's a decent amount of hindsight there.

Yeah, it is hindsight, in part.

But, Myrow and Fernando were two stathead favs that were never given a chance, especailly Fernando (Myrow was a nifty pickup out of an indy league to start with, so I give credit to Cashman there). It was foresight on behalf of the Dodgers and Japanese leagues to pick up these guys. Fernando, iirc, hit something like 300/400/600 in Japan

Wasn't Thames like 25 when he was let go? Did he run out of options or was he just dumped?

I think it is a pattern with Cashman. He is REALLY good at picking up top notch talent. He is really bad at picking up replacement parts.

(You are right about Houston; I can imagine not wanting him for reasons other than on-field play.)

[Melo]

Originally Posted by Joshv02

Yeah, it is hindsight, in part.

But, Myrow and Fernando were two stathead favs that were never given a chance, especailly Fernando (Myrow was a nifty pickup out of an indy league to start with, so I give credit to Cashman there). It was foresight on behalf of the Dodgers and Japanese leagues to pick up these guys. Fernando, iirc, hit something like 300/400/600 in Japan

Wasn't Thames like 25 when he was let go? Did he run out of options or was he just dumped?

I think it is a pattern with Cashman. He is REALLY good at picking up top notch talent. He is really bad at picking up replacement parts.

(You are right about Houston; I can imagine not wanting him for reasons other than on-field play.)

It's hard to judge what Cashman is responsible for and what he is not responsible for. With George as an owner, it's hard to evaluate anyone but George.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

That is true, but they don't spend the way Boston and New York do.

Besides, at the begining of the year I predicted Florida to win the east.

Ah, the short memories of Braves fans. This will be the same Braves that had the biggest payroll that had the highest payroll in the NL for years on end, using that payroll to sign up long-term players like the Jones's, Smoltz etc. etc.

It wasn't until 2000 that the Sox finally began to spend more than Turner's boys. If any team had benefited/is benefiting still from overspending, it's those Atlanta boys.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Ah, the short memories of Braves fans. This will be the same Braves that had the biggest payroll that had the highest payroll in the NL for years on end, using that payroll to sign up long-term players like the Jones's, Smoltz etc. etc.

It wasn't until 2000 that the Sox finally began to spend more than Turner's boys. If any team had benefited/is benefiting still from overspending, it's those Atlanta boys.

I stand corrected

But, even when they had to trim payroll from being in the red they still put a winning product out on the field.
Could New York or Boston do that?
We will never find out.

[MrWorkrate]

Originally Posted by Joshv02

Yeah, it is hindsight, in part.

But, Myrow and Fernando were two stathead favs that were never given a chance, especailly Fernando (Myrow was a nifty pickup out of an indy league to start with, so I give credit to Cashman there). It was foresight on behalf of the Dodgers and Japanese leagues to pick up these guys. Fernando, iirc, hit something like 300/400/600 in Japan

Yeah, but Japan numbers are still Japan numbers, and Fernando couldn't play the outfield if his life depended on it, and with the Yankees already having Giambi, there wasn't much need for him. Of course, you can point to last season and Tony Clark and easily justify him sticking on the roster, and had he stayed, then he'd still be available now, although without him being able to play the outfield, his value, even now would be limited. He'd have Tino's spot on the roster right now, and it's not Tino that's the issue right now.

Myrow I don't seem to understand why teams don't seem to like him - like I said, LA DFAed him in April, and he's still in Las Vegas playing for the 51s, not on the 40 man roster. Apparently every team in the league looked at him and said they didn't need him - could his third base defense be that bad? I agree he's worth a look, at least from a statistical standpoint (I was pushing for the Yanks to give him a chance when Boone originally got hurt, pre-ARod), but no one seems to want to give him the opportunity. I could see it if he played the LF/RF/1B non-position like Seguignol did/does, but he's a third baseman - at least a somewhat skilled position.

Originally Posted by Joshv02

Wasn't Thames like 25 when he was let go? Did he run out of options or was he just dumped?

Thames was 26 when the Yankees traded him to Texas for Sierra, which at the time was pretty much Texas sumping off a contract they didn't want to pay and the Yankees trading a player who had hit .207 the previous season at Columbus and was batting .278/.332/.407 with 2 HR in 52 games for Columbus at the time of the deal. Texas dumped him during the offseason, and Detroit picked him up. He still had options, because they mentioned that Thames is out of options this season with Detroit.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by MrWorkrate

It's not that - I know about the trading of the kids, although in defense of the three players you mentioned there, Claussen's still an iffy proposition (with his shoulder problems), and Pena was moreso a bad contract signing when they first signed him (Pena was signed to a major league contract, so he was immedately placed on the 40 man roster - as he continued to develop, the Yankees knew he would be out of options by the time he was 21, so they dealt him for someone they (and many others) felt was another very good prospect - Drew Henson). Lilly was a bit farsighted.

This is a joke, right? They overpaid for Henson coming out of college and iirc, traded him to Cincy, and Henson basically demanded a trade back to the Yanks. The Yankees gave both players stupid contracts out of the draft and it came back to bite them in the ass.

Who exactly considered Henson a good prospect?

[KILLERBS24]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

Who exactly considered Henson a good prospect?

The NFL and George!

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

Who exactly considered Henson a good prospect?

Dumbest multi-million dollar experiment ever.

[MrWorkrate]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

This is a joke, right? They overpaid for Henson coming out of college and iirc, traded him to Cincy, and Henson basically demanded a trade back to the Yanks. The Yankees gave both players stupid contracts out of the draft and it came back to bite them in the ass.

Who exactly considered Henson a good prospect?

Baseball America. His prospect rank over the years:

2002: #9
2001: #14
2000: #24
1999: #100

In 2002, BA ranked him as the Yankees' #1 prospect, and had him ranked higher than Mark Teixeira overall.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by MrWorkrate

Baseball America. His prospect rank over the years:

2002: #9
2001: #14
2000: #24
1999: #100

In 2002, BA ranked him as the Yankees' #1 prospect, and had him ranked higher than Mark Teixeira overall.

Anyone got a link to his minor league numbers? Was there ever any basis for thinking he was going to.... um.... not suck?

[TotalEnd98]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Anyone got a link to his minor league numbers? Was there ever any basis for thinking he was going to.... um.... not suck?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...w_henson.shtml

Was a perfectly acceptable prospect until 2001 or so.

[MrWorkrate]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Anyone got a link to his minor league numbers? Was there ever any basis for thinking he was going to.... um.... not suck?

The numbers aren't overly impressive. Henson was a dreaded "tools" guy who had a major league contract as well, so I think he was on the options route that Wily Mo Pena was on, hence the Yanks desire to rush him through the system. He was 20 playing in AA and 21 playing in AAA, and I think the belief was that he had the power and the "tools", but the high strikeouts could be attributed to his being "the youngest player in the league" type concerns.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

It wasn't until 2000 that the Sox finally began to spend more than Turner's boys. If any team had benefited/is benefiting still from overspending, it's those Atlanta boys.

They stopped overspending once AOL/Time Warner took over the team. They're no Milwaukee nowadays but they're certainly not in the Yankee/Red Sox spending area either.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Just looked at that myself. I don't know about perfectly acceptable:

In 1999, he had an .831 OPS in the Class-A Florida State League at the age of 19. Not too shabby, I guess, although also nothing to stop the presses. The next season, Baseball America has him rated as the #24 prospect in baseball. Are you telling me that there are only 15 or so hitting prospects in all of baseball that are better than this?

In 2000, he had a .789 OPS in AA at age 20. Again, not terrible, but I'm not really seeing what would make anyone conclude that he's the #14 prospect out there (as Baseball America did the next season) - does that mean that only about 1/3 of the other teams (at most) have hitting prospects better than this? Preposterous.

In 2001, he had a .623 OPS at AAA Columbus, and was clearly overmatched. Baseball America moved him up to the #9 prospect in baseball the next year. WTF? Seriously, WTF?

In 2002, he had a .736 OPS at Columbus, and was now 22 years old. Um, I believe this was supposed to be his "getting ready to take over the third base job" season; instead, it appears to have been his "holy ****, the emperor has no clothes" season.

And then in 2003, he had a .703 OPS at Columbus and decided baseball wasn't for him.

Baseball America notwithstanding, I don't see anything here that makes me believe that he was ever anything other than a middling prospect - two blue stars, in OOTP parlance.

[MrWorkrate]

I'm assuming that BA got all caught up in the "tools" aspect of Henson, and chalked up his numbers to being overmatched at the higher levels he was playing at. Eventually, he'd "mature as a hitter", turning those strikeouts into base hits or walks or something like that. The 2001 season was the "overmatched" season, being a 21 year old in AAA. BA took the leap and decided that with his "tools" and beign more mature, Henson was going to take some Chavez-like leap and be ready to play in the majors.

In 2002, he did no such thing, and then BA denied any knowledge of him. While it wasn't necessarily fair to dump on Henson for his lack of progress over that timeframe, I think BA was taking a lot of assumptions based on his "great athletic skills" and his toolset.

Had Henson not been a bonus baby with a major league contract and allowed to develop like any other prospect (and not had the NFL whispering in his ear every second), he might have developed into a major league baseball player - not necessarily a #9 player in all of baseball, but someone who might have been Russ Branyonesque.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Well, yeah. And if I don't rush my two-star prospects to the bigs, sometimes they end up being solid ten-year guys.

I guess I just forget sometimes just how fundamentally flawed tools-based analysis is.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Here's something that came up in a conversation I had with someone today:

Who would you rather have - Kevin Brown or Ted Lilly?

Because that's really the tradeoff, since it was Lilly for Weaver, then Weaver for Brown. Not that Lilly's all that, but just interesting to ponder.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

Here's something that came up in a conversation I had with someone today:

Who would you rather have - Kevin Brown or Ted Lilly?

Because that's really the tradeoff, since it was Lilly for Weaver, then Weaver for Brown. Not that Lilly's all that, but just interesting to ponder.

I hated the idea of trading Lilly when it happened. But, at least it was for a young pitcher who had a lot of potential (not directly for Brown). The thing I never got is Lilly was pitching just as well as Weaver when the deal went down. (Column headings first)..

                 W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA

Lilly's line --  3   6  16  11   2   1   1  0   76.7   57   31   29  10   24   59   5   6   314  3.40  4.38  129

Weaver's line -- 6   8  17  17   3   3   0  0  121.7  112   50   43   4   33   75   8   4   509  3.18  4.20  132

Both kids entered the league in 99, but Weaver did have the stronger 1999-2001, so maybe the Yanks thought his 2002 was a fluke and would trade him while the price was high. But, with Lilly being a lefty, and starting to show signs he was figuring out how to pitch in the majors, I hated dealing him.