Bonds vs. Ruth rehashed

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
You started out saying that he was sooo far ahead of everyone with his bat and now that I'm convincing otherwise, you want to bring up pitching.

On that score the only person who is convinced is you.

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
So is Babe Ruth the best ever because he pitched well or because he was a dominant hitter, or both? You started out saying that he was sooo far ahead of everyone with his bat and now that I'm convincing otherwise, you want to bring up pitching. We don't know if he was as great a hitter as his statistics show just like his pitching stats would also be skewed had he pitched against blacks.

Basically, everything Ruth accomplished in his career may or may not have been as great had he played with blacks. We don't know, folks. Why claim to know that he's the best ever when we know he only played against white players.

Actually, I came into this mess saying Ruth's pitching puts him far above any other player. I posted his pitching stats twice, and that's really all I have put into this discussion. You show me where I "started out saying that he was sooo far ahead of everyone with his bat ". I never said it. You are just rambling now. This is absolutely pointless, because you are not even trying to argue any coherent point anymore, you're just babbling on and on and accusing people of being racist.

Edit- and btw, that sounds incredibly familiar.

[Mel_Ott]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Why claim to know that he's the best ever when we know he only played against white players.

The only thing you're convincing me of is that I've wasted my evening arguing with a fool. We know he only played against players who happened to play at the same time as he did, too. So what? Show someone who measures up to Ruth; nobody's arguing that it's not possible. We're saying it hasn't been done.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
But that's not the argument here. The argument here is, was there any specific black man who in fact did hit 60 homers? Since baseball was segregated, we have to look at Negro League stats of the same time; and there wasn't. Or if there was, you haven't given any evidence of him.

You can't look at negro league stats because (1) they are biased because they are only against other blacks and (2) negro league stats are not accurate.


And OUR points are that (1) you don't know either; and (2) you have no evidence to support your theory. You go from an overbroad generalization to an unsupported specific case without citing anything more than your own opinion as backup. Why should anyone care what you think about Babe Ruth if all you have to offer is unsupported opinion and conjecture?

(1) I've already said that I don't know (2) You still claim to know that no one could have played at Ruth's level without any specific proof or evidence other than that he played against white people and dominated.

What if Josh Gibson did, in fact, hit more career HRs than Babe Ruth and dominated his league the way Ruth did? Would I say Josh Gibson was the best player ever? Hell no. The man only played against black people. Just like Sadaharu Oh only played aginst other Japanese people and supposedly hit more career HRs than anybody in the world. No one talks about how he's the greatest to ever live. Because he only played aginst other Japanese people.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
[B]Or the simplest explanation: he didn't exist. If you want to make up wild conspiracy theories about how The Man kept the Black Babe Ruth under wraps, you knock yourself out, Oliver. But if you want to retail your wild suppositions as support for the idea that Ruth isn't as good as Bonds, you're going to have to deal with people calling you on your lack of evidence.



RIGHT. Just like the Black Babe Ruth.

In case you didn't catch my "God" reference, it was to show you that just becasue there's no evidence of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There could be a number of reasons why the evidence doesn't exist for a black Babe Ruth, but just because there is none, doesn't mean he didn't exist.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
Oh yeah, and no one dominated the way Ruth did from the end of his prime (1934) until Jackie Robinson's debut (1947). So altogether we are talking about 50 years of baseball history with no one coming close to Ruth's level.

You mean the same 50 years that blacks weren't allowed in baseball?

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
You mean the same 50 years that blacks weren't allowed in baseball?

Yup, the same. What's your point?

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
In case you didn't catch my "God" reference, it was to show you that just becasue there's no evidence of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There could be a number of reasons why the evidence doesn't exist for a black Babe Ruth, but just because there is none, doesn't mean he didn't exist.

So you are saying it is a fact that God exists?

You just proved what thousands of years of civilization could not.

Congratulations. Now please, get some rest.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by holyroller
Okay, let's clarify what we are saying. Pay attention now. We are saying that there is no player (black, white, orange, green) ever that we know of who was as dominant as Ruth. Period.

This is true. There is no one who put up better stats in a major league uniform than Babe Ruth. But could someone have put up as good or better stats back then? We don't know. As long as people say that no one could have played at Babe Ruth's level, I'm going to have a problem with that. But if you say no one dominated the way The Babe did, then I can dig that.

[holyroller]

Originally posted by sixfour210
In case you didn't catch my "God" reference, it was to show you that just becasue there's no evidence of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There could be a number of reasons why the evidence doesn't exist for a black Babe Ruth, but just because there is none, doesn't mean he didn't exist.

I don't believe in God either. At least we are both consistent.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
NO. I'm not saying there's "no way" a black man couldn't have been as good as Babe Ruth. I'm saying that, in fact, we have no evidence that such a man existed. Do you see the difference?

We can make the assumption that there wasn't a black player who was as good as Ruth or better because we have no proof either anecdotal or statistical or any other you care to name that such a player in fact existed.

Ok, along the lines somewhere, you did say no one could have played at Ruth's level, white or black, which I had a problem with. Now that you're saying that assumptions are not relevant, I can agree with you as long as you agree that your assumption that Babe Ruth would have been as dominating had he played with blacks is also wrong.

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Ok, along the lines somewhere, you did say no one could have played at Ruth's level, white or black, which I had a problem with. Now that you're saying that assumptions are not relevant, I can agree with you as long as you agree that your assumption that Babe Ruth would have been as dominating had he played with blacks is also wrong.

So now just the idea that Ruth would be less dominating is good enough for you? You've been arguing this whole time that someone could have been better. Now you're saying Ruth would have been a little less dominant.
I wish you would make up your mind what, exactly, you want to argue about before you start these kinds of threads.

[MannyTrillo]

Another thing is, if you were to put Babe Ruth in a time machine and bring him into the present day to have him compete against today's players, you don't know what the effects of time travel would be. He might come out of the time machine completely ****ed up- like with his face all twisted and disorted, weird bubbly-like things the size of basketballs on his body, and his brain totally fried so that he's jabbering like a lunatic and drooling on himself. In that case, he probably wouldn't be able to hit a major league pitcher of any race.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by Mel_Ott
The only thing you're convincing me of is that I've wasted my evening arguing with a fool. We know he only played against players who happened to play at the same time as he did, too. So what? Show someone who measures up to Ruth; nobody's arguing that it's not possible. We're saying it hasn't been done.

Just to clarify, people have said it wasn't possible. And why do you think it hasn't been done? Has everybody been given a fair chance to prove they can play at that level? No. It's like having an arm wrestling contest with little kids and dominating and as soon as a big guy wants to challenge you, you close the door to him and say you've had enough. Sure, you can say you dominated like no other, but is it fair to give someone who beat up on little kids the distinction of being the "most dominant ever"?

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by JML
So you are saying it is a fact that God exists?

You just proved what thousands of years of civilization could not.

Congratulations. Now please, get some rest.

Wow, you're good at putting words in people's mouths. I never said I proved God exists. I said there's no evidence to prove that he does or doesn't. Ott is hung up on evidence that there wasn't a black Babe Ruth, so he doesn't exist. But I'm saying that he could, even though there's no obvious evidence.

[Modern Relic]

Really don’t mind if you sit this one out.

[sixfour210]

Originally posted by JML
So now just the idea that Ruth would be less dominating is good enough for you? You've been arguing this whole time that someone could have been better. Now you're saying Ruth would have been a little less dominant.
I wish you would make up your mind what, exactly, you want to argue about before you start these kinds of threads.

Again, the master of putting words in people's mouths returns.

If you read carefully, I said I cannot assume that someone could have been as dominanat as Ruth just as you all cannot assume that no one could have been as dominant as Ruth.

[Modern Relic]

My words but a whisper -- your deafness a shout.

[Modern Relic]

I may make you feel but I can’t make you think.

[JML]

Originally posted by sixfour210
Again, the master of putting words in people's mouths returns.

If you read carefully, I said I cannot assume that someone could have been as dominanat as Ruth just as you all cannot assume that no one could have been as dominant as Ruth.

You said, "I can agree with you as long as you agree that your assumption that Babe Ruth would have been as dominating had he played with blacks is also wrong." So you are saying Ruth would have been less dominating, not that someone would have surpassed him.

And you are the one who claimed I was bringing Ruth's pitching ability in just because his hitting ability wasn't enough to make a point, so don't lecture me about putting words in people's mouths.