Historical database issues go here!

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Can we get a separate database with the real historical teams.
I get the historical setup for 19th century leagues is to make it easier for new players or historical/fictional players. But when you dont use the actual historical teams and rosters it becomes fictional setup anyway.

I like to teams in my leagues being the correct ones.
Heck i will replay a season if i missed making a roster change on the last day of the season.
I thought about just adding the players i need to my transaction list and add the teams.
Then you have to deal with the schedules, ballparks etc.

You cant import the teams you need cause 5 teams from 1884 dont exist in the game's database.
I am still using ootp23 as it makes historical play for 19th century leagues with real rosters so much easier.

Thing is that an expansion with the correct teams, players and transactions can be done.
You just need the transactions to match.
You don't want to release a player that would leave a team with not enough players.
To be honest i use my transactions list and have hardly ever ran into not enough players.
Unless injuries are turned up.

Still transactions aren't my main concern.
Just having correct teams would work.
The ad says "Manage any MLB franchise from any point in history"
How do i do that if 5 teams from 1884 are not even there?
Sorry i guess im just frustrated that i cant play ootp 24 till i get to the sim year 1901

We only really consider MLB as dating from 1901 (or 1903, when the National Agreement between the NL and AL was signed.

We've never had the correct 19th century historical teams in OOTP by default in any version of OOTP, because the engine does not handle contracting teams, which happened so often then, terribly well. This is not new to OOTP24.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely we add this any time soon, as it would actually take an incredible of work to make this work correctly.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by asrivkin

T
I don't know enough about databases to dig into it, but does that mean that the relevant databases are only queried when players enter the game as opposed to being re-imported each game year?

Generally speaking, yes, the player level data is only queried when the player is imported, it's not updated each year. There might be a couple exceptions to that, I'm not certain. But for 99% of cases, that should hold true.

[asrivkin]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

What kind of effect the change in their NeL stats (from being weighted as AAA to MLB) would have across saves (and now also across db types) isn't something I've seen discussed. You may be the first.

And to think, my college professors didn't think I'd ever do anything notable.

[brady3577]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Can you quote some specific examples here? That would be a big help in fixing this up.

Sorry it took so long to get back. But it's almost every manager in the game if not all. I mainly noticed it with Oliver Marmol, he has no previous record.

[AESP_pres]

Harry Brooks (player id 1018) real name is Fred Mauer... check BBRef for the details.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Fred_Mauer

[thehef]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Can we get a separate database with the real historical teams.
I get the historical setup for 19th century leagues is to make it easier for new players or historical/fictional players. But when you dont use the actual historical teams and rosters it becomes fictional setup anyway.

I like to teams in my leagues being the correct ones.
Heck i will replay a season if i missed making a roster change on the last day of the season.
I thought about just adding the players i need to my transaction list and add the teams.
Then you have to deal with the schedules, ballparks etc.

You cant import the teams you need cause 5 teams from 1884 dont exist in the game's database.
I am still using ootp23 as it makes historical play for 19th century leagues with real rosters so much easier.

Thing is that an expansion with the correct teams, players and transactions can be done.
You just need the transactions to match.
You don't want to release a player that would leave a team with not enough players.
To be honest i use my transactions list and have hardly ever ran into not enough players.
Unless injuries are turned up.

Still transactions aren't my main concern.
Just having correct teams would work.
The ad says "Manage any MLB franchise from any point in history"
How do i do that if 5 teams from 1884 are not even there?
Sorry i guess im just frustrated that i cant play ootp 24 till i get to the sim year 1901

OOTP's 1871 season is historically correct as far as the teams included are concerned. It's not the National Association; rather, it is fitted into the two-league - AL & NL - format. But otherwise it's correct...

What you could try is modifying the teams.csv file so from 1872 through 1900 it is historically correct - with the exception of the league structure. IOW, you'll still have to make it work within the AL & NL framework. But otherwise, I think it would work... You'd have to do all the transactions yourself unless you are ok with fictional/game-generated transations (it sounds like you're willing to do txns yourself, so no problem there).

You can specify the correct ballpark names in the teams.csv files. I think the actual schedules are out there, but not sure...

Editing the teams.csv file in order to accomplish this would take some doing, but I think it would work. (It's a project that I'd like to try one of these days... I'd certainly be willing to assist if you or someone wanted to try, as I'm fairly familiar with how these files work.)

I'm curious about this, though:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I am still using ootp23 as it makes historical play for 19th century leagues with real rosters so much easier.

What has changed? Not at all doubting you. I'm just curious what's different.

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

We've never had the correct 19th century historical teams in OOTP by default in any version of OOTP, because the engine does not handle contracting teams, which happened so often then, terribly well. This is not new to OOTP24.

Hey Lukas, how specifically does OOTP not handle contraction well? Is it less because of the teams contracting as it is the start up and folding of leagues, or? I'm wondering because the amount of minor league teams & leagues starting and folding in the 1919-1960's range is flat-out staggering, yet OOTP handles all of that just fine (as far as I can tell, anyway).

[AESP_pres]

Cinders O'brien (id 1090) is listed as Darby O'brien in the game...
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...;brida02.shtml

[AESP_pres]

You certainly know it already but 1890 have the same problem than 1884...

All the players who played for Brooklyn (AA), Rochester, Syracuse and Toledo have no stats line for the current season. I suppose it's the same for those who played in the Player League but I don't create that league in my game (too much trouble for what it worth).

Edit: I have checked again this morning and this is only Toledo in the AA who is affected since the other three teams are created in the game. As I said before no players have their Player League stats line.

[AESP_pres]

1891: The players who played for the Cincinnati Kelly's Killers don't have their stats line for that season.

[thehef]

Just wanted to follow up on these, as I find this subject very interesting

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I am still using ootp23 as it makes historical play for 19th century leagues with real rosters so much easier.

Originally Posted by thehef

What has changed? Not at all doubting you. I'm just curious what's different.

... and...

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

We've never had the correct 19th century historical teams in OOTP by default in any version of OOTP, because the engine does not handle contracting teams, which happened so often then, terribly well. This is not new to OOTP24.

Originally Posted by thehef

Hey Lukas, how specifically does OOTP not handle contraction well? Is it less because of the teams contracting as it is the start up and folding of leagues, or? I'm wondering because the amount of minor league teams & leagues starting and folding in the 1919-1960's range is flat-out staggering, yet OOTP handles all of that just fine (as far as I can tell, anyway).

[Robin4]

Every time I start a historical season, even though I click "import complete history" all history is missing up to that season.

[uruguru]

Billy Goodman (historical id 'goodmbi01') signed as a free agent with the 1962 Houston team on 5/15/1962. However, when playing with historical transactions starting in the 1962 season, he is available for use immediately on opening day.

It's easy to work around (i.e. don't use him until 5/15), but just wanted to point it out if this is something you guys like to fix.

[pstrickert]

Yes, we'll fix it. Thank you.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by thehef

OOTP's 1871 season is historically correct as far as the teams included are concerned. It's not the National Association; rather, it is fitted into the two-league - AL & NL - format. But otherwise it's correct...

What you could try is modifying the teams.csv file so from 1872 through 1900 it is historically correct - with the exception of the league structure. IOW, you'll still have to make it work within the AL & NL framework. But otherwise, I think it would work... You'd have to do all the transactions yourself unless you are ok with fictional/game-generated transations (it sounds like you're willing to do txns yourself, so no problem there).

You can specify the correct ballpark names in the teams.csv files. I think the actual schedules are out there, but not sure...

Editing the teams.csv file in order to accomplish this would take some doing, but I think it would work. (It's a project that I'd like to try one of these days... I'd certainly be willing to assist if you or someone wanted to try, as I'm fairly familiar with how these files work.)

I'm curious about this, though:

What has changed? Not at all doubting you. I'm just curious what's different.

The problem isnt the AL and NL abbreviations.
It's the franchID
When you change the franchID so that team history will be accurate
the teams will fold at the end of the season.
So when the 1873 Boston Red Stockings show up,
the 1872 Boston Red Stockings are now shown as a defunct team.
This also affects the automatic import of rookies to their correct teams.
Which in turn makes more work for those that prefer historical rosters.

I do have a transaction log but i will have to go back and put in all the
rookies that could be automatically imported when you changed the teams csv file in previous versions.
Not to mention that you now have to sign all the players that are now free agents because of the all the teams that folded.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

We only really consider MLB as dating from 1901 (or 1903, when the National Agreement between the NL and AL was signed.

We've never had the correct 19th century historical teams in OOTP by default in any version of OOTP, because the engine does not handle contracting teams, which happened so often then, terribly well. This is not new to OOTP24.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely we add this any time soon, as it would actually take an incredible of work to make this work correctly.

dk.
If i can do it anyone can do it.
I have never had a problem with contracting teams till 24.
It doesn't work well because ootp is focused on the teams
You need historical transactions to go along with the expansion.
Obviously some trade dates are missing so the key is not trading a player
for example to a team that has already folded.

You could take input from those that start in the 19th century.
I dont think i'm the only one that has made their own historical transaction log.
There's nothing i do that the game couldn't do itself if given the information.
I'm sure those that prefer to use accurate rosters would share what they can with ootp.
I know i would but i also know the modern era and pt comes first.
Which makes sense.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Yes, we'll fix it. Thank you.

I really appreciate your attention to detail. This is such a minor issue I felt a little guilty posting it.

[Angeldnavac]

I try to start a historical season and there are a lot of young players that shouldn't suppose to be that good. It happens in every single historical season that I try. Is there anything I can do? Can somebody try to do a 2017 historical season to see if I am not the only one?

https://ibb.co/wSWZVWM
https://ibb.co/9yG0Rnv

Thank you

[zappa1]

I just came across Albert James Dolan "Cozy". Both his birth year and birth place are wrong as per baseball reference. Thank you.

[LansdowneSt]

Jeff v John Stone

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...&postcount=273

[djc]

Negro league players question. First thanks for including them. I have been working on a way to make them more realistic with other baseball sims. See my website projects. Here is my latest project http://baseballreplay.hopto.org/brn2/index.php. Please see the reference section for scources used to create the negro league players.
Is there a way to create or modify the database to reflect a more realistic version of those players. I agree that most of the negro leaguers were AAA talent at best, but some of them were on par with major leagues and I would like to see them represented that way.

Thank you for your taking the time to look into this.