THE Red Sox Thread (and Yankees too!)

[Elendil]

Thanks for the links, dh... the first seems particularly relevant & seems to support my point.

Specifically, in the latter part of the 1990s and continuing into the 21st century, the greater the team payroll and the more equally this payroll is distributed among team members, the better the on-field performance of the team. This is a problem of particular concern because of the growing disparity in team payrolls which, in turn, affects the competitive balance of the sport. {emphasis added}

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[disposableheros]

i would venture to say that competitive imbalance is a necessary evil in all sports

[Milverton]

Originally Posted by jcurtis423

Good point, milferton (can i call ya milf?)

I was probably taking everybody's postings a bit too seriously. I've been lurking for awhile so I should have known better. Of course, if my Cards are lucky enough to win it all this year, I know I will have a hard time not boasting a bit myself! It's been a long 17 years!

Over twenty since we won (though getter there is almost good enough!).

I got to spend some time with Keith Hernandez and Bruce Sutter after game seven of the '82 series. I remember Keith and Willie did not get along too well, so McGee was not around; but it was a memorable interview.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by disposableheros

i would venture to say that competitive imbalance is a necessary evil in all sports

Yep... the NFL is having a REALLY hard time keeping up with the rest of the major sports.

In all seriousness though, I'm not sure if I want it to go that far, but some more competitive balance would benefit the league as a whole.

[Danny]

Losing the first two games of the series was all part of the plan for the Sox. Anyway, I would feel just about as comfortable as I am now with them being up 2-0. They would be destined to blow it...

[Anachronism]

Since when does spending big bucks always equal winning?

Just ask fans in New York about the Rangers....

[Flapjack]

Normally I stay out of this stuff but I feel like I have to say something. I'm a proud Yankees fan, and a little good-natured rivalry is always fun, but this thread has gone way too far. A true Yankees fan should act like the team does- proud, businesslike, carrying yourself like a true champion. Not trying to make fun of other fans like I've seen the Yankees fans in this thread doing. I hope you guys will start acting a little more like Jeets and Bernie and little less like Laurel and Hardy.

[AnotherAlias]

Originally Posted by Danny

Losing the first two games of the series was all part of the plan for the Sox.

Yes, they've got them right where they want them.

[benchwarmer]

Yep, the sox planned on this. Even Schilling going down was big scam! They want to bring this series back to New York and to Game seven to accumulate more revenue

[Milverton]

Originally Posted by Danny

Losing the first two games of the series was all part of the plan for the Sox. Anyway, I would feel just about as comfortable as I am now with them being up 2-0. They would be destined to blow it...

Such fear! No surprise from a Red Sox fan when facing the hated Yankees! I think the series might draw even, but I doubt if a Jeter led club will allow losses in four of the next six games.

[thehatfield]

Jeter's got to falter sooner or later - isn't it later yet?

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Milverton

Such fear! No surprise from a Red Sox fan when facing the hated Yankees! I think the series might draw even, but I doubt if a Jeter led club will allow losses in four of the next six games.

The man is a great hitter and an average fielder. He is also a very good leader. But statements like this give him wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much credit.

[Milverton]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

The man is a great hitter and an average fielder. He is also a very good leader. But statements like this give him wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much credit.

I know that is a common opinion these days, but it seems a jest in looking at your picture!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by benchwarmer

Yep, the sox planned on this. Even Schilling going down was big scam! They want to bring this series back to New York and to Game seven to accumulate more revenue

Exactly. It was obvious they weren't even trying...they're so good they don't even have to try until the third game, or maybe the fourth.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Milverton

I know that is a common opinion these days, but it seems a jest in looking at your picture!

No, being completely level-headed and unbiased. As someone who considers himself a knowledgable fan... Please don't write off my opinion as "biased" simply because I'm a Sox fan.

I know that Jeter brings a lot to the table. I know he's a leader. I know he's a great hitter. I also know that the media hypes him to no end.

Look at the catch he made vs. the Red Sox earlier in the year... You know... THE catch. Great catch... no doubt about it. However, Pokey Reese made a play just as good 2 innings before. Pokey has far better range so he was able to run further than Jeter did on his catch... but because he didn't have to go diving into the stands to make his play (he actually went into the photographer's booth if IIRC)... and he's not Derek Jeter... his play didn't even get a second mention.

I have the utmost respect for Derek Jeter... He's a gamer, and a future HOF'er. I'm just making the point that he's a tad overrated.

[Anachronism]

Although now 3 years old... here are a couple articles explaining Jeter's defensive woes...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1415713.html

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=1111

[Anachronism]

Just in case someone want more up to date stats, I made a list of all starting SSs using data from the 2003 season (only because the almanac does not have full defensive ratings for the 2004 season yet!). You'll notice that there are only 29 teams here... that is because one of the teams didn't have a shortstop that played more than 50 games.

What I've done is change the stats to the postion rank that they are in when compared to their peers. So a "1" indicated first overall, while a 29 is the worst. In terms of errors, a "1" means the LEAST amount of errors, and "29" indicates a stone glove...

here are the numbers on Jeter:

          POS G GS OUTS TC TC/G CH PO  A  E DP FLD% RF ZR

NYY Jeter  SS 9  6   10 11   13 10  1 16 11  7    4 18 15

As you can see, Jeter ranked 18th out of 29 in terms of his "Range Factor" and he was 15th of 29 in terms of "Zone Range." Although he ranked #1 in terms of put outs, he was a less than average 16 in terms of assists (fielded balls). So he isn't getting to many that are hit his way still...

Here's the rest of the league:

              POS   G  GS OUTS	TC  TC/G  CH	PO   A	 E  DP FLD%  RF	ZR
CAL  Eckstein  SS  21  21   21	21    20  21	17  22	 1  22	 2   19	 1
CHA  Valentin  SS  15  17   17	14    10  14	 8  14	25   7	23   10	 2
TB   Lugo      SS  20  19   19	18     2  18	12  19	20  17	21    4	 3
STL  Renteria  SS   6   6    5	13    23  13	20  10	16  14	12   25	 4
CHN  Gonzalez  SS  11  14   14	15    22  15	17  12	 6  10	 2   17	 5
CIN  Larkin    SS  29  29   29	29    26  29	29  29	 5  29	28   21	 6
HOU  Everett   SS  18  19   20	17    13  17	13  18	20  19	21    2	 7
KC   Berroa    SS   3   3    3	 1    2    1	 2   4	28   3	25    4	 8
FLA  Gonzalez  SS  11  11   11	10    10  11	 5  11	16   2	10   13	 8
BAL  Cruz      SS  14  13   13	12    13  12	 9  13	16   7	12   15	 8
TEX  Rodriguez SS   3   3    4	 5    13   5	 7   5	 1   1	 1   13	11
MON  Cabrera   SS   1   2    2	 4    10   4	 3   7	24   6	12   11	12
LA   Izturis   SS   3   6    6	 6    13   6	15   2	16  12	 8   16	12
SF   Aurilia   SS  19  18   18	20    23  20	21  20	11  16	17   26	14
NYY  Jeter     SS   9   6   10	11    13  10	 1  16	11   7	 4   18	15
CLE  Peralta   SS  28  27   26	27     6  27	28  27	 1  28	10    8	16
COL  Uribe     SS  27  27   28	25     1  25	23  25	 8  24	18    1	17
BOS  GarciaparaSS   6   5    7	 7    13   7	11   7	25  15	20   20	18
PHI  Rollins   SS   9  10    8	 9    13   9	14   6	14  13	 6   21	19
MIL  Clayton   SS  16  15   16	16    20  16	17  14	14  17	 8   23	19
PIT  Wilson    SS  13  12   12	 8     6   7	10   9	20   5	12    9	21
TOR  Woodward  SS  23  23   23	22     6  22	22  21	20  20	26    7	22
SEA  Guillen   SS  26  26   27	28    28  28	27  28	 8  26	27   27	23
SD   Vazquez   SS  22  22   22	23    28  23	26  23	11  24	23   28	24
ARI  Cintron   SS  24  24   24	26    23  26	25  26	 1  26	 6   24	25
ATL  Furcal    SS   8   6    9	 3     2   3	 5   2	29   3	29    6	26
MIN  Guzman    SS  16  15   15	19    26  18	16  17	 8  22	 5   29	27
OAK  Tejada    SS   1   1    1	 2     6   2	 4   1	27  10	18   12	28
DET  Santiago  SS  25  25   25	24     5  24	24  24	 6  21	12    3	29

Damn... if that just didn't absorb 90 minutes of my time... ay carumba! And I told the wife I'd only be a few minutes on line!!

[Milverton]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

No, being completely level-headed and unbiased. As someone who considers himself a knowledgable fan... Please don't write off my opinion as "biased" simply because I'm a Sox fan.

I know that Jeter brings a lot to the table. I know he's a leader. I know he's a great hitter. I also know that the media hypes him to no end.

Look at the catch he made vs. the Red Sox earlier in the year... You know... THE catch. Great catch... no doubt about it. However, Pokey Reese made a play just as good 2 innings before. Pokey has far better range so he was able to run further than Jeter did on his catch... but because he didn't have to go diving into the stands to make his play (he actually went into the photographer's booth if IIRC)... and he's not Derek Jeter... his play didn't even get a second mention.

I have the utmost respect for Derek Jeter... He's a gamer, and a future HOF'er. I'm just making the point that he's a tad overrated.

I'm not a Yankees fan either, by no means! I was more captured by the comparison in myth between Mr. Jeter and Mr. Martinez (who is in your picture).

I agree with what you are saying. I was speaking only about the Yankees short stop's leadership qualities; not his playmaking abilities!

[Milverton]

Originally Posted by Anachronism

Just in case someone want more up to date stats, I made a list of all starting SSs using data from the 2003 season (only because the almanac does not have full defensive ratings for the 2004 season yet!). You'll notice that there are only 29 teams here... that is because one of the teams didn't have a shortstop that played more than 50 games.

What I've done is change the stats to the postion rank that they are in when compared to their peers. So a "1" indicated first overall, while a 29 is the worst. In terms of errors, a "1" means the LEAST amount of errors, and "29" indicates a stone glove...

here are the numbers on Jeter:

          POS G GS OUTS TC TC/G CH PO  A  E DP FLD% RF ZR

NYY Jeter  SS 9  6   10 11   13 10  1 16 11  7    4 18 15

As you can see, Jeter ranked 18th out of 29 in terms of his "Range Factor" and he was 15th of 29 in terms of "Zone Range." Although he ranked #1 in terms of put outs, he was a less than average 16 in terms of assists (fielded balls). So he isn't getting to many that are hit his way still...

Here's the rest of the league:

              POS   G  GS OUTS	TC  TC/G  CH	PO   A	 E  DP FLD%  RF	ZR
CAL  Eckstein  SS  21  21   21	21    20  21	17  22	 1  22	 2   19	 1
CHA  Valentin  SS  15  17   17	14    10  14	 8  14	25   7	23   10	 2
TB   Lugo      SS  20  19   19	18     2  18	12  19	20  17	21    4	 3
STL  Renteria  SS   6   6    5	13    23  13	20  10	16  14	12   25	 4
CHN  Gonzalez  SS  11  14   14	15    22  15	17  12	 6  10	 2   17	 5
CIN  Larkin    SS  29  29   29	29    26  29	29  29	 5  29	28   21	 6
HOU  Everett   SS  18  19   20	17    13  17	13  18	20  19	21    2	 7
KC   Berroa    SS   3   3    3	 1    2    1	 2   4	28   3	25    4	 8
FLA  Gonzalez  SS  11  11   11	10    10  11	 5  11	16   2	10   13	 8
BAL  Cruz      SS  14  13   13	12    13  12	 9  13	16   7	12   15	 8
TEX  Rodriguez SS   3   3    4	 5    13   5	 7   5	 1   1	 1   13	11
MON  Cabrera   SS   1   2    2	 4    10   4	 3   7	24   6	12   11	12
LA   Izturis   SS   3   6    6	 6    13   6	15   2	16  12	 8   16	12
SF   Aurilia   SS  19  18   18	20    23  20	21  20	11  16	17   26	14
NYY  Jeter     SS   9   6   10	11    13  10	 1  16	11   7	 4   18	15
CLE  Peralta   SS  28  27   26	27     6  27	28  27	 1  28	10    8	16
COL  Uribe     SS  27  27   28	25     1  25	23  25	 8  24	18    1	17
BOS  GarciaparaSS   6   5    7	 7    13   7	11   7	25  15	20   20	18
PHI  Rollins   SS   9  10    8	 9    13   9	14   6	14  13	 6   21	19
MIL  Clayton   SS  16  15   16	16    20  16	17  14	14  17	 8   23	19
PIT  Wilson    SS  13  12   12	 8     6   7	10   9	20   5	12    9	21
TOR  Woodward  SS  23  23   23	22     6  22	22  21	20  20	26    7	22
SEA  Guillen   SS  26  26   27	28    28  28	27  28	 8  26	27   27	23
SD   Vazquez   SS  22  22   22	23    28  23	26  23	11  24	23   28	24
ARI  Cintron   SS  24  24   24	26    23  26	25  26	 1  26	 6   24	25
ATL  Furcal    SS   8   6    9	 3     2   3	 5   2	29   3	29    6	26
MIN  Guzman    SS  16  15   15	19    26  18	16  17	 8  22	 5   29	27
OAK  Tejada    SS   1   1    1	 2     6   2	 4   1	27  10	18   12	28
DET  Santiago  SS  25  25   25	24     5  24	24  24	 6  21	12    3	29

Damn... if that just didn't absorb 90 minutes of my time... ay carumba! And I told the wife I'd only be a few minutes on line!!

Outstanding research!

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by Milverton

Outstanding research!

Hmm. Since when is comparing 9 games of fielding stats by Jeter (to say nothing of Jeter having just come back from an injury--if this is 2004 data as stated) an outstanding comparision for any argument?

Not pumping up Jeter as the Ozzie Smith of his era, but 9 games worth of data?