Developer Update Thread (last update: 11/14/2013)

[TheAlaskan]

I really don't think it's worth getting this worked up over some sparse communication during the holidays... sheesh.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by sprague

I think people are starting to understand the real problem- what was being brought up a year ago

The design team does not know enough about the sport of hockey....

Does it occur to you that the problem may be more than the team lacking hockey knowledge and being unwilling to listen to other opinions? That the problem may be the way you and the few others like you are presenting your "ideas"?

We've heard little from you and several of the other most vocal flamers on the board than: "FHM sucks" "the Devs are morons with no hockey knowledge" "this game is a steaming pile of dog poo" "everyone at OOTP should be shot for releasing this fraud of a game" etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Once in a while some of you throw out a specific area where there's a real issue but generally the approach is entirely focused on aggressively, almost rabidly, attacking and tearing down the game and the folks making it as well as those who reasonably suggest that the game will get better, that it just needs time.

Given that utterly nonconstructive approach of burning all bridges in sight and presenting yourselves as the only few intelligent folks on the board who have any hockey knowledge, does it come as a shock to you and the few others taking the same approach that your views are marginalized and your opinions are not consulted?

Contrast that to someone like Ciccarelli, who while probably not having an overall opinion of the game that's much higher than yours in some ways rather took a completely different approach, a constructive one.

He's taken the time to document the issues he saw, to test them, to show actual facts regarding where the game falls down and them to make constructive and reasoned suggestions on the improvements that need to be made. He's supported them with actual data, rather than self aggrandizing proclamations of superior knowledge. He's done so without flaming the devs or other posters on the site. As a result, he (and several others like him) have been added to the beta team and they are being listened to and consulted by the FHM team.

The problem here is realistically 50% with the game, which is buggy, no doubt about it, and 50% with the out-sized expectations of immediate perfection and aggressive, arrogant, narcissistic, entitled attitude of the flamers on this forum. Take a step back from this specific game and get over yourself for a second.

Look at every single other game that's ever been created in the text based sport simulation genre. 90% or them are utterly hopeless and show no signs of ever improving. I've never found a text based basketball or American football game worth even $5, in my opinion.

The only hockey game that's ever been any good, EHM, was a complete mess in its first commercial release and only really got decent with its third release from SI, the 2007 version. In fact in this genre there have only been three really, really good games: FM, EHM and OOTP. One of which is made by this company and all of which of which frankly sucked, relatively speaking, in their first couple versions as well.

That knowledge should be your first clue that this is a much harder thing to get right than you think it is. It's not something that will happen overnight, it's going to take time. That's the nature of the beast. The question you and some others should ask yourselves is how to best help make that happen?

Do you really think that a flame war and utter and complete condemnation, repeated frequently, of the dev team and all their works will ever provide any positive effect or provide any help whatsoever in getting this game to where you want it to be? If not, then what's the purpose of taking that approach?

[Mickeyb37]

I have read a lot of the posts by Cicarelli and Lukasberger and I really respect your points of view. However we are well over a year since the game was first announced and a good 8 months on from when it was supposed to be first released. It then went on to a lengthy beta process.

Cicarelli if all we have to be grateful for after 3 patches and the beta process is that the game doesn't crash as much then that is pretty crap. Lukas a lot of people had very realistic ideas of what the game should be like on release and that was a basic hockey management simulation. I agree with guys like Penfold who say that these very basic requirements weren't met as there are many issues with trading, free agency etc.

I think a lot of people are angry about the lack of communication and rightly so. This isn't due to the holiday period as one person suggested its been like that for months and the dev updates are shocking.

I also think the game doesn't feel like a hockey sim. I have played EHM since its shareware/freeware days. I think EHM was pretty good by the time the EHM2007 version came out and I stuck with it until that point. There are a few good sports sims I actually like the Wolverine Basketball games and I am an avid fan of Football Manager (have been since the Championship Manager days). I have stuck by these games in their various incarnations and quite willingly spent my money as they developed and would do with this game if I saw some improvements in FHM.

I think the game has potential but in many ways as Sprague said I think it needs a bit of an overhaul in terms of the game engine.

I also think the devs have left themselves open to criticism due to the quality of the product they released and I agree with Penfold when he said that the testing had obviously not been up to scratch with the bugs that were present in the released version and also in the subsequent patches.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Mickeyb37

I have read a lot of the posts by Cicarelli and Lukasberger and I really respect your points of view. However we are well over a year since the game was first announced and a good 8 months on from when it was supposed to be first released. It then went on to a lengthy beta process.

Cicarelli if all we have to be grateful for after 3 patches and the beta process is that the game doesn't crash as much then that is pretty crap. Lukas a lot of people had very realistic ideas of what the game should be like on release and that was a basic hockey management simulation. I agree with guys like Penfold who say that these very basic requirements weren't met as there are many issues with trading, free agency etc.

I think a lot of people are angry about the lack of communication and rightly so. This isn't due to the holiday period as one person suggested its been like that for months and the dev updates are shocking.

I also think the game doesn't feel like a hockey sim. I have played EHM since its shareware/freeware days. I think EHM was pretty good by the time the EHM2007 version came out and I stuck with it until that point. There are a few good sports sims I actually like the Wolverine Basketball games and I am an avid fan of Football Manager (have been since the Championship Manager days). I have stuck by these games in their various incarnations and quite willingly spent my money as they developed and would do if I saw some improvements in FHM.

I think the game has potential but in many ways as Sprague said I think it needs a bit of an overhaul in terms of the game engine.

I also think the devs have left themselves open to criticism due to the quality of the product they released and I agree with Penfold when he said that the testing had obviously not been up to scratch with the bugs that were present in the released version and also in the subsequent patches.

That's a totally valid view, and one which I share to a greater extent than you may realize.

I'd be the last person to claim that the game hasn't been disappointing or that it doesn't need a lot of work.

The thing is that everyone, even the devs, realize that. They've said so themselves.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing the game or even the team, if it's done in a way that offers something constructive and useful.

The point I'm trying to get across is simply that there's really no point in some folks simply continuing to shout "kill the devs" and "this game sucks" at the top of their lungs.

Either the dev team gets it and will work hard to improve the game or they don't get it and they won't. Repeated flaming and non-constructive criticism isn't going to influence that one way or another.

It accomplishes nothing other than to make the forums an unpleasant, unfriendly place and to scare away some users who could otherwise likely contribute with additional ideas, suggestions and perspectives.

[tran]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Does it occur to you that the problem may be more than the team lacking hockey knowledge and being unwilling to listen to other opinions? That the problem may be the way you and the few others like you are presenting your "ideas"?

We've heard little from you and several of the other most vocal flamers on the board than: "FHM sucks" "the Devs are morons with no hockey knowledge" "this game is a steaming pile of dog poo" "everyone at OOTP should be shot for releasing this fraud of a game" etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Once in a while some of you throw out a specific area where there's a real issue but generally the approach is entirely focused on aggressively, almost rabidly, attacking and tearing down the game and the folks making it as well as those who reasonably suggest that the game will get better, that it just needs time.

Given that utterly nonconstructive approach of burning all bridges in sight and presenting yourselves as the only few intelligent folks on the board who have any hockey knowledge, does it come as a shock to you and the few others taking the same approach that your views are marginalized and your opinions are not consulted?

Contrast that to someone like Ciccarelli, who while probably not having an overall opinion of the game that's much higher than yours in some ways rather took a completely different approach, a constructive one.

He's taken the time to document the issues he saw, to test them, to show actual facts regarding where the game falls down and them to make constructive and reasoned suggestions on the improvements that need to be made. He's supported them with actual data, rather than self aggrandizing proclamations of superior knowledge. He's done so without flaming the devs or other posters on the site. As a result, he (and several others like him) have been added to the beta team and they are being listened to and consulted by the FHM team.

The problem here is realistically 50% with the game, which is buggy, no doubt about it, and 50% with the out-sized expectations of immediate perfection and aggressive, arrogant, narcissistic, entitled attitude of the flamers on this forum. Take a step back from this specific game and get over yourself for a second.

Look at every single other game that's ever been created in the text based sport simulation genre. 90% or them are utterly hopeless and show no signs of ever improving. I've never found a text based basketball or American football game worth even $5, in my opinion.

The only hockey game that's ever been any good, EHM, was a complete mess in its first commercial release and only really got decent with its third release from SI, the 2007 version. In fact in this genre there have only been three really, really good games, FM, EHM and OOTP. One of which is made by this company and all of which of which frankly sucked, relatively speaking, in their first couple versions as well.

That knowledge should be your first clue that this is a much harder thing to get right than you think it is. It's not something that will happen overnight, it's going to take time. That's the nature of the beast. The question you and some others should ask yourselves is how to best help make that happen?

Do you really think that a flame war and utter and complete condemnation, repeated frequently, of the dev team and all their works will ever provide any positive effect or provide any help whatsoever in getting this game to where you want it to be? If not, then what's the purpose of taking that approach?

You've got a lot of nerve attacking customers of a product that doesn't work.
OOTP should be thankful that anyone even gives a hoot about this game.

Go over to EHM the Blue line, a place that has worked tirelessly to support this game and the EHM community -- they've practically given up on the game.

When a company makes something and takes your money, they are obligated to fix the product and be very up front about when, where and how they are going to fix it.

OOTP aren't our friends. It's a business.

Some of you act like we should be grateful for the chance to throw money at them, because they even attempted a hockey sim. And for some of us, there's some truth to that.

If you think this is bad, you should check out Sony's computer support forums, or Comcast support forums. People here are being nice.

Considering the sorry state of the game, people should expect irate customers.

[tran]

Originally Posted by sprague

I think people are starting to understand the real problem- what was being brought up a year ago

The design team does not know enough about the sport of hockey.

A bunch of us were very concerned with the design choices back in 2012 and we tried to let the group know, they were going in a very unrealistic direction, that they were not going to be recreating the sport

Through beta periods, releases, patches, nothing has improved...why...they don't know how to improve it. And the people out there with that knowledge got ignored.

One reason there has been no communication is that the team thinks they have created a good basic game engine, all they need to do is tweek it a bit. But the players are finally getting, nothing about the game is accurate.

The standard response is, it will get better, they are working on it.
I don't think it will get better. The knowledge base is obviously missing. Without that they can try as hard as they want, but its never going to improve, never capture the realism of the sport that hockey game players will require.

Its too bad. OOTP has a good layout to work with. I am sure the design team are nice people- ones we would all like to have a beer with. But talking business, what they created is quite a mess, and there is nothing in that mess that suggests a realistic game in 6 months, a year, 3 years without drastic overall changes-

To me- poor trading, salary management, drafts, are minor problems compared to the fact a hockey game does not reflect hockey. That is the killer right there- and its now starting to reveal itself more and more.

Can it be fixed? Maybe. But it needs an overhaul. A good foundation. It requires creating a "hockey experience." And they will have to go outside the inner core for that.

It's a text sim. There's only so much hockey feel you're going to get.

TO me the issues are about bugs, poor execution and interface.

One of the great things about EHM was the way you could SORT everything. You could move around the vast hockey world, from click to click. Drafts were organized and made sense, You had a 200 man ISS scouting list + Tons of ways to sort out the kids.

The draft in FHM is a hoke.
The interface is terrible. It's a pain in the ass to even check on the game stat's from the game you just simmed.
It's a pain in the ass to find the stats for my AHL Club. In EHM, AHL stats were two clicks away.

Everything about this game -- even without the bugs -- is a pain the ass.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by tran

You've got a lot of nerve attacking customers of a product that doesn't work.
OOTP should be thankful that anyone even gives a hoot about this game.

Go over to EHM the Blue line, a place that has worked tirelessly to support this game and the EHM community -- they've practically given up on the game.

When a company makes something and takes your money, they are obligated to fix the product and be very up front about when, where and how they are going to fix it.

OOTP aren't our friends. It's a business.

Some of you act like we should be grateful for the chance to throw money at them, because they even attempted a hockey sim. And for some of us, there's some truth to that.

If you think this is bad, you should check out Sony's computer support forums, or Comcast support forums. People here are being nice.

Considering the sorry state of the game, people should expect irate customers.

As for the attitude of the Blueline, yeah I've seen that to some extent. But some of the main folks from the Blueline clearly haven't given up on the game. Archibalduk and Alessandro for example are still working really hard on the beta team.

Overall, I think you've somehow missed the main points of what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't criticize the game, or that nothing's wrong with it or that OOTP are friends and not a business, or that "we should be grateful for the chance to throw money at them, because they even attempted a hockey sim".

I'm saying that it's clearly damn hard to make a perfectly functioning sports based text sim on the first try. Why do I say that? Because every single other sports text sim that's come out has kind of stunk in its first version or two as well.

That goes even for the greats of the genre, FM, OOTP and EHM. Since even they couldn't do it perfectly on their first shot, why would anyone have expected FHM to be any different? Most other text based sports sims never even get better than stinky, even after 5-6 versions or more.

What FHM does have is a lot of potential and a company with a proven track record behind it. That to me is worth a lot, and grounds for more optimism and less aggression than a lot of folks around here seem to be showing. I'm certain that this game will be great. I just never thought it would be great, or even good, in its first release given what I've seen from every other game in this genre. I honestly don't understand why anyone else would've thought that either.

The reality of the matter is that given the budget restrictions and small teams inherent to sports text based games the current state of the game is really just par for the course for even an excellent game in this genre at this point of its development.

[tran]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

A

I'm saying that it's clearly damn hard to make a perfectly functioning sports based text sim on the first try. Why do I say that? Because every single other sports text sim that's come out has kind of stunk in its first version or two as well.

I guess that's why we pay them $40 for the game, right?
If they can't hack it, then why do it?

IMO, first try is no excuse. Especially when you consider how willing the "community" was to by an alpha project and do tests.

This game needed to be BETTER than EHM 07 was.

It's 2013. There's no excuse for putting out a product that doesn't meet the standards of a game that couldn't cut it 6 years ago.

I've got no idea why hockey game simmers are so anxious to lower the bar for OOTP. But it's ridiculous.

That goes even for the greats of the genre, FM, OOTP and EHM. Since even they couldn't do it perfectly on their first shot, why would anyone have expected FHM to be any different? Most other text based sports sims never even get better than stinky, even after 5-6 versions or more.

Because they are CHARGING MONEY for it.
If I go to a restaurant on opening day and the food is so bad I can't eat it, should I ask for my money back?
If some company breaks into the mobile device market and makes junk, am I supposed to accept that "it's their first try" when the product doesn't work?

What FHM does have is a lot of potential and a company with a proven track record behind it. That to me is worth a lot, and grounds for more optimism and less aggression than a lot of folks around here seem to be showing. I'm certain that this game will be great. I just never thought it would be great, or even good, in its first release given what I've seen from every other game in this genre. I honestly don't understand why anyone else would've thought that either.

Some of us are paying for potential. I've said that right from the start. Fine. We're paying for potential.

But not all of us. In fact, I'd say the majority of sales weren't to customers like me who felt like, at some level, this was about sustaining a project for the future.

The reality of the matter is that given the budget restrictions and small teams inherent to sports text based games the current state of the game is really just par for the course for even an excellent game in this genre at this point of its development.

Nah. The reality of the matter is they released a pisspoor game that is less fun and less user friendly than Riz's old freeware game.

If you think this game is "par for the course" you're on a crappy course. This is junk.
I say as I look at my computer screen and see a rookie goalie with a 6.0 rating and 10 games experience demanding $6 million a year, and 4th liner Jordin Tootoo demanding $4,5M a year after his 6 goal, 8 assist season. I say this after quitting a historic sim that crashed, over and over and over again, on Sept. 23.

This is poorly put together.

[pens66]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

The reality of the matter is that given the budget restrictions and small teams inherent to sports text based games the current state of the game is really just par for the course for even an excellent game in this genre at this point of its development.

You have to consider that CM (before it was FM), OOTP and EHM were in a sense groundbreaking with the depth they offered. FHM is "just" what came after EHM. The devs had the chance to learn from actually two great text based sims. But it hasn't worked out at all so far and many simply can't accept the lousy state of FHM at this point. It's hard to support a game that tries to offer something new over its 7,5 year old predecessor, but fails, and is in a rough shape to boot.

[Penfold75]

CM (before it became Football Manager) was from the start a very basic football management game that allowed the player to carry out a lot of tasks related to football management. It was developed by a very small team in the newly founded company SI in the early 90's. In fact most of the work was done by two brothers the Collyers.

The big bugs and stuff came as the game developed but the core of the game still delivered all the basic options.

Small Team, Small Company and a basic game delivered from the start that did what it said on the tin.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Penfold75

CM (before it became Football Manager) was from the start a very basic football management game that allowed the player to carry out a lot of tasks related to football management. It was developed by a very small team in the newly founded company SI in the early 90's. In fact most of the work was done by two brothers the Collyers.

The big bugs and stuff came as the game developed but the core of the game still delivered all the basic options.

Small Team, Small Company and a basic game delivered from the start that did what it said on the tin.

Sure, I agree.

That's part of the problem with FHM. Rather than putting out a basic no frills game that functioned well, the team tried to put too much advanced stuff into it too soon. It was a mistake, as they've even admitted. But at this point they have to work with what they have, which is a game that's heavy on features but light on functionality.

That being said, I was talking more about the first version of FM, was it FM 2006? That was a decent game, but it had some big, big bugs and some real growing pains as well, it took quite a while to get it stabilized. That just seems to be the deal with these kind of games. FHM is not unique in it's early struggles.

[BlackIce]

First of all, Happy new years to everyone and I hope your new years was as boring but laid back as mine lol I did so much "catching up" with friends and family during my days off here I outdone myself where it really mattered.. new years eve! oh well... always next year lol

Which leads me into jumping into this whole conversation that went from developers notes to an outright all every man for itself and opinions of the game being thrown around. If this isn't a wake up call to them then nothing is, I for one believe with so much people being involved with they're thoughts and comments, advice to outright sheer unhappiness of the state of the game, the next patch is either gonna make or break folks.

So in all honestly, I hope for the FHM developers they release a patch that's gonna hit a home run so to speak! I would love to see a updated list on the website on occasion that they could update and "solidify" what we could expect in the next patch, I do not think that's too much to ask is it ?

Some of you's who claim and have stressed how much expierence you have as a programmer yourselves could surley help out in a sense and become behind the scenes testers could you not ? Couldn't the developers use some help from say... i don't know.. they're fanbase !!!??? or more so the customers who are willing to help ???

It would lessen the time it takes to detect bugs and even perhaps speed up the process of the game becoming more and more stable and in-depth ? They claim to have a two man crew going on, well.. why not get people involved who don't mind using some spare time to help out ?

[pens66]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

That being said, I was talking more about the first version of FM, was it FM 2006? That was a decent game, but it had some big, big bugs and some real growing pains as well, it took quite a while to get it stabilized. That just seems to be the deal with these kind of games. FHM is not unique in it's early struggles.

The first version of FM was called Championship Manager and was released in 1992.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by pens66

The first version of FM was called Championship Manager and was released in 1992.

Yeah, I played it nearly from its beginning. But FM isn't a pure continuation of the old CM. There was the whole Eidos/SI split and FM and CM being produced at the same time. I guess FM had the old CM source code, so it is kind of a direct descendant from the old CM. Either way the first version of FM had some real issues and bugs itself iirc.

[Mordrehl]

You know what the kicker is?

This thread is Developer Update Thread created by

Sebastian Palkowski ... who last posted to an OOTP forum on Nov 15th, 2013

The last reply in this thread from somebody from OOTP was Dec 19 by JeffR

Now, are you going to try and tell me they've been completetly shut down over Christmas? They didn't open on the 20th? 23rd? 24th? 27th? the 30th? 31st?

Everyone can take whatever side they want about the state and future of this game. You can call it a pile of dog poo or label it a valiant first attempt with massive potential. Neither addresses two fundamental problems :

a) The game has many bugs, many problems (salaries, trading, crashes)
b) The almost complete lack of communication from the developers.

if B was much better, then A would be more bearable. If A were better then B would be more bearable.

But when you combine the poor state this game is in with the incredibly insulting lack of communication, updates and feedback from the developers ... well ... pitchforks and such

[pens66]

Originally Posted by Mordrehl

You know what the kicker is?

This thread is Developer Update Thread created by

Sebastian Palkowski ... who last posted to an OOTP forum on Nov 15th, 2013

Thank you for this. I hate to be the only one to constantly bring this up.

[yzerwing]

Why is it, that the complainers never mention anything good about the game. They act like everything is garbage, and nothing is proper when there are lots of good things about the game.

Yes, there are also many issues, but let's not act like everything they have made thus far is crappy. Some of the guys defending the game, will at least mention the negatives of the game, but all the belly-achers do is knock every single thing.

Let's not forget, as good as EHM 2007 was, it also had many annoying issues that plagued it.

[AlpineSK]

Personally, i like the accuracy of historical rosters. Beyond that, most of the core game to me IS garbage..

Trading.. Contract management.. Player management.. retirement of historical players with history.. No development in historical play.. Events only occurring every two seconds on even seconds.. fighting does not work right.. Rules in leagues beyond the NHL are not properly set.. the UI is clunky and not user friendly and frankly ugly because of the Grand Canyon that exists between player names and the first rating column (side note: I'm planning on tight rope walking across it this Spring..) There's virtually no point in simming in game unless for some reason the clock on your stove is broken and you need a 20 minute countdown while cooking...

I could go on and on..

What do you see as the positive features?? I'm all ears..

Originally Posted by yzerwing

Why is it, that the complainers never mention anything good about the game. They act like everything is garbage, and nothing is proper when there are lots of good things about the game.

Yes, there are also many issues, but let's not act like everything they have made thus far is crappy. Some of the guys defending the game, will at least mention the negatives of the game, but all the belly-achers do is knock every single thing.

Let's not forget, as good as EHM 2007 was, it also had many annoying issues that plagued it.

[Duranium]

Originally Posted by pens66

The first version of FM was called Championship Manager and was released in 1992.

...and it was pure garbage...

[Duranium]

Originally Posted by Mordrehl

Y Neither addresses two fundamental problems :

a) The game has many bugs, many problems (salaries, trading, crashes)
b) The almost complete lack of communication from the developers.

if B was much better, then A would be more bearable. If A were better then B would be more bearable.

But when you combine the poor state this game is in with the incredibly insulting lack of communication, updates and feedback from the developers ... well ... pitchforks and such

hmmm...i hate to admit it but you´re right