What is it with relief pitching?

[kborsuk]

The one thing that always chafes me about this game is the insane amount of bullpen meltdowns we see.

Sometimes I feel like I'm rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I have lost so many games out of the bullpen with pitchers who should be better and do not have track records of consistent awfulness like I am seeing.

Are there any tips to improve? Am I doing things wrong or is this just the way the game is?
thanks for any advice!

[kq76]

Are you playing your games out or just simming them? What era are you playing in? I ask b/c tips would depend on how/what you're playing.

[Sweed]

Any chance you have "warmups" turned on and you are not warming up your RPs?

As far as my game I don't think anything is out of line. I use warmup and never bring in someone that is not ready. I get good and bad rolls of the dice.
The bad ones tend to stick in my mind, while those good performances I tend to take for granted.

[kborsuk]

Originally Posted by kq76

Are you playing your games out or just simming them? What era are you playing in? I ask b/c tips would depend on how/what you're playing.

Thanks. I am in GM mode so I simulate the games. And I am in 1977 but it seems to be an issue that follows me whatever year I am in and whatever team I am in

[kborsuk]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Any chance you have "warmups" turned on and you are not warming up your RPs?

As far as my game I don't think anything is out of line. I use warmup and never bring in someone that is not ready. I get good and bad rolls of the dice.
The bad ones tend to stick in my mind, while those good performances I tend to take for granted.

That is certainly possible. I don't even know where "warmups" are. I am in GM mode and simulating most of the games that I don't just watch through
thanks!

[Guthrien]

Originally Posted by kborsuk

That is certainly possible. I don't even know where "warmups" are. I am in GM mode and simulating most of the games that I don't just watch through
thanks!

I doubt very much it's the warmup option, which isn't relevant except games you are managing live.

I guess I'd just say.. it depends on the relievers? It sounds like you're having some crap luck. You're simming, so you should be able to compare the bullpens of others to yourself? I've had great bullpens, bad bullpens, and bad bullpens do indeed kill you. It seems like good relievers are the easiest to find but they don't all work out. This game seems to really reward stoppers, which are the best, stamina heavy, reliever you can find. Then making sure the right people are assigned for high leverage.

I think it's luck and not the game, but I suppose you could have magically changed some setting that's making your life worse.

[kq76]

If you're only simulating, then you don't have to worry about warm-ups.

1977 is a year that is pretty close to the historical averages (since 1920) in most categories so I wouldn't really say the year has anything to do with it then.

Is there a certain stat they're bad at? Like HRs, doubles, SBs, walks, Ks? If so, get better relievers in those areas, maybe upgrade your defense, change your ballpark.

I'd say search out some threads where people talk about how they organize their bullpen. Some people like to save their best relievers for high leverage situations (stoppers), some like to go for a contemporary bullpen with 2 setup guys, a closer, etc, but some people like to make all their relievers MRs, while some, like myself, like a hybrid approach.

Do you have enough relievers? I've been guilty of this in the past too, but a lot of people try to skimp on the # of relievers in their bullpen with the idea that that roster spot can be better put to use on the bench. If most of your relievers are often tired, you probably need another reliever, even if only temporarily. It's not terrible to use a reliever who is slightly tired (yellow), but you definitely don't want to use relievers who are tired or exhausted (orange or red).

If you're not already, use a 6th or 7th starter in the bullpen as a long reliever / emergency SP. I really like having 2 of those in my bullpen as they can not only soak up some relief innings, but you can also start them if you have a SP go down with an injury or go on a cold streak. You might want to consider employing a would-be AAA SP prospect as a LR/ESP on the big league team, or if there are better FAs then go that route.

[Syd Thrift]

It's also a thing that IRL relievers blew a third or more of their save opportunities in the 70s. An awful lot of that is down to how closers were used back then which I think OOTP does an OK job of recreating, actually: instead of being used almost entirely for 1 inning at a time when the team was up by 1-3 runs, guys would often come in in the 8th and sometimes the 7th and very often - especially when they were asked to pitch more than an inning at a time - they'd come in in very volatile situations, like having more runners on base than their team is ahead.

Also, too, probably the nature of the sport back then - a loooooot fewer strikeouts, most of all - almost certainly meant that when an ace reliever in particular was asked to go into a game, they'd give up more "productive outs" that still of course counted on the scoreboard but had a greater chance to move players up. Also there were like 5-10% more hits, which doesn't sound like an astoundingly high number but it adds up.

ETA: yep, the leaguewide save rate was 68% back then. Even with a relatively smaller number of saves - 32 per team - that meant that each team on average blew about 15 a year.... although man, I did not realize this but teams blew 36% of saves last year so that whole era of guys not blowing up is kind of not around anymore...

In any case my own experience playing in a league currently set in 1971 is... it comes out about right statistically but sometimes an otherwise good pitcher will go through a run where they're awful and a couple of the better closers, at least in terms of the saves leaderboard, don't have the kind of overpowering, shutdown stuff you'd expect from a closer nowadays.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Guthrien

This game seems to really reward stoppers, which are the best, stamina heavy, reliever you can find.

I'd love to see an in-depth discussion on what's most important for a stopper vs, for example, a closer or setup guy, but "stamina heavy" for a stopper? That's about the lowest priority I can think of for a stopper.

I suppose we may have different definitions of a stopper, but for me it's a guy to just get us out of a bad jam, like a close game, men on 2nd and/or 3rd, etc. I don't really care if my stopper can go more than 1 inning, but I really want him to put an end to the current situation. I definitely don't want them to give up a home run or even a hit (so movement is huge), a strikeout or 2 or 3 would be great to avoid a possible fielding error (stuff), and you don't want him to walk in a run either (so avoid horrific control).

I wouldn't even worry all that much about holding runners. If you're in a high leverage situation, you're probably already past a guy just being on 1st. And while a runner on 3rd is more likely to score than one on 2nd, the difference isn't as high as most people probably think, especially with 2 outs.

Maybe this shouldn't be the case, but I find most, if not all, relievers can go 2 innings if they're fully rested anyway. In real life you rarely see that now.

[Pelican]

My idea/use of the Stopper is set to 7th inning forward. When managing a game, I would bring in my stopper to face the heart of the opposing lineup, in the 7th, 8th, or 9th innings. Typically my Stopper has a very high stuff rating, above average in movement and control. Stamina? I would not let my Stopper throw more than 25 pitches.

[Guthrien]

I don't think of Stamina being the priority by any means, but anyone I've designated as a stopper ends up working multiple innings and is likely to accumulate totals that might be expected out of a 6th starter depending on your staff and their ability. They're still a high leverage pitcher and all that entails. I'm not sure I can think of any modern examples though there's a few I think more likely to be called in specifically for 8th/9th work. I've never had a stopper with stamina at the very lowest scale, but again, I'm not scouring relievers looking for stamina, historically for me they have been former starters with stamina around 40 with great stuff.

[md40022]

Stopper comes in to "STOP" the rally. Hence the name. Not really a long relief guy, and truthfully no definitive time of when he should or shouldn't pitch.

Bases loaded with 1 out in a tight game and you could really use a strikeout or groundball? That's stopper territory. Regardless of if it's the 5th inning or the 8th inning.

Should have filthy, nasty stuff as he needs to get strikeouts without allowing runners to advance. Again, hence the name - stopper. Usually I wouldn't expect him to be a multi-inning guy only because the stuff tends to be less nasty when asked to pitch longer.

I'd basically consider him your 2nd nastiest reliver outside of the closer - able to be deployed at the stickiest situation in the game, whenever that may be

[kq76]

I apologize. My definition of Stopper is incorrect, at least as far as OOTP is concerned. I noticed this in the manual:

Stopper: Stoppers will be used to finish games when your team is winning or the score is close, and can be set to come in a little sooner than a closer does.

So a Stopper should have good stamina!

And yes, I know the term stopper was once used to describe a team's best SP as they were counted on to stop losing streaks, but at some point the term began to be used for a team's best reliever.

I've had the two different definitions in my head for a long time (we've discussed this topic before), but I guess I never realized which definition OOTP went with. Or I forgot. I guess you can probably get closest to the role I was describing by setting them as a MR, their usage to "use more often" and their secondary role to "high leverage". I find it a bit strange that "high leverage" is only a secondary option, not a primary. I'm going to try to assign the label Fireman to this role in my head from on now, even though I know it was synonymous with Stopper for awhile.

It's a good thing I play out my games now. Getting relievers to do exactly what you want them to do when simming was/is complicated!

[Mota]

Originally Posted by kborsuk

The one thing that always chafes me about this game is the insane amount of bullpen meltdowns we see.

Sometimes I feel like I'm rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I have lost so many games out of the bullpen with pitchers who should be better and do not have track records of consistent awfulness like I am seeing.

Are there any tips to improve? Am I doing things wrong or is this just the way the game is?
thanks for any advice!

What is your starter ERA and bullpen ERA? Usually I'm able to find a relief staff much cheaper, so my bullpen ERA is lower.

[Guthrien]

Originally Posted by md40022

Stopper comes in to "STOP" the rally. Hence the name. Not really a long relief guy, and truthfully no definitive time of when he should or shouldn't pitch.

Bases loaded with 1 out in a tight game and you could really use a strikeout or groundball? That's stopper territory. Regardless of if it's the 5th inning or the 8th inning.

Should have filthy, nasty stuff as he needs to get strikeouts without allowing runners to advance. Again, hence the name - stopper. Usually I wouldn't expect him to be a multi-inning guy only because the stuff tends to be less nasty when asked to pitch longer.

I'd basically consider him your 2nd nastiest reliver outside of the closer - able to be deployed at the stickiest situation in the game, whenever that may be

Definitely good, definitely necessary, but Stopper is a role in this game and I think should probably be handled in a particular way. You by no means require them! I don't always have one (rarely actually).

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by kborsuk

The one thing that always chafes me about this game is the insane amount of bullpen meltdowns we see.

Sometimes I feel like I'm rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I have lost so many games out of the bullpen with pitchers who should be better and do not have track records of consistent awfulness like I am seeing.

Are there any tips to improve? Am I doing things wrong or is this just the way the game is?
thanks for any advice!

I hear you loudly. It's quite insane at times.I changed my closer 4 times this week. It also might be Im playing in silver league with way to many WHALES here. But that how it goes...Ive learned the pass 4 years you can't outspend the WHALES, so I quit trying and ply my trade in Silver & Gold Leagues with hope WHALES will eventually move up.I Wish there was leagues where GOLD and lower could participate in. I'm talking about a OOTP inserted league and not one where I got to sign up to Discord or whatever hoops you gotta jump through to join.