Very disappointing decision

[ehalt]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Don't you think the legal counsel for OOTP and Com2US would have considered all of this before they released the patch?

Any counsel whose advice is "just introduce a bug into your loyal customers' beloved save files" rather than "just spend what it takes to get the license" isn't a counsel whose advice is worth listening to. Some ideas are so blatantly stupid that they should be thrown out immediately.

[RaUni]

Isn't it great all the assumptions that OOTP was "forced" to do this. They could've said no, we will not put our grubby paws on our customers personal save files, and fought for the customers. They clearly didn't. And haven't said a damn word about it. End all be all, they had a choice, they made it. Save themselves and their money over protection of their customers.

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[FuzzyRussianHat]

Originally Posted by ehalt

Any counsel whose advice is "just introduce a bug into your loyal customers' beloved save files" rather than "just spend what it takes to get the license" isn't a counsel whose advice is worth listening to. Some ideas are so blatantly stupid that they should be thrown out immediately.

We have no way of knowing that [redacted] even gave them an option to buy a license. It's entirely possible and likely that existing contracts forbid OOTP from even going that route if they wanted to, and/or [redacted] has zero interest in their content being used at all for this type of game.

The way OOTP nuked files I'd assume was very much a last resort type thing that they had no choice due to severe legal threats. It's not the type of thing I assumed they'd do unless they felt they had no other options. If the ultimatum was "nuke everything or we'll sue you into bankruptcy," they don't have much alternative.

[ehalt]

Originally Posted by RaUni

Isn't it great all the assumptions that OOTP was "forced" to do this. They could've said no, we will not put our grubby paws on our customers personal save files, and fought for the customers. They clearly didn't. And haven't said a damn word about it. End all be all, they had a choice, they made it. Save themselves and their money over protection of their customers.

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Spot on. Until something comes out that says otherwise, anyone insisting OOTP was "forced" to do anything is writing fanfiction. They had the choice between acting ethically and making more money, and they chose the money.

[ehalt]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

We have no way of knowing that [redacted] even gave them an option to buy a license.

Yes we do? Licenses exist, therefore the option to purchase them exists. Konami bought one, apparently.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Chimaera

You would have thought OOTP/Com2US legal counsel would have prevented the team from putting [redacted league] in the game in the first place.

This does sort of bring the discussion full circle. I have to say that I think two things are true here:

1. I think it is terrible to go into save games and mess with them. I understand that it's been dictated by the company that purchased the OOTPD that we know. It's a terrible practice and they deserve to lose sales over it.

2. It's insanely reckless to include team and player names with no licensing agreements in place. I haven't checked this, but people here are saying that is the state of things with not just the Japanese league (until recently of course), but also all leagues other than MLB/MiLB/Korean leagues.

If that is true, it is a TERRIBLE decision. I say this as a lawyer. OOTP sells itself on the idea that all the world's leagues are available. It is literally making money on selling what it has no right to sell (if people's descriptions are accurate).

Why not just include the leagues you have the legal right to use? Back in the 2000s, when OOTP had no MLB license, that's what it did. The community had mods up to sort it out. If MLB had ever paid attention, it could have gotten OOTPD to take down links to those mods. It could have gone after individual modders and maybe shut things down. But people's data would have been safe and OOTPD would be shielded from liability.

Instead they chose to sell a thing they didn't have and now we, the customers, reap the consequences.

[RaUni]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

We have no way of knowing that [redacted] even gave them an option to buy a license. It's entirely possible and likely that existing contracts forbid OOTP from even going that route if they wanted to, and/or [redacted] has zero interest in their content being used at all for this type of game.



The way OOTP nuked files I'd assume was very much a last resort type thing that they had no choice due to severe legal threats. It's not the type of thing I assumed they'd do unless they felt they had no other options. If the ultimatum was "nuke everything or we'll sue you into bankruptcy," they don't have much alternative.

I'd buy the next product from developers who went down swinging protecting their customers. Instead of one who takes money and hopes customers will come back. Both scenarios are dead OOTP, with one being trustworthy and the other not. But the main case is that they can definitely say why they did what they did or they chose to do it how they did. They haven't. And anything past these 48 hours is going to be less and less believable. Silence and censorship is deafening and we're past the point of it mattering.

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[FuzzyRussianHat]

Originally Posted by ehalt

Yes we do? Licenses exist, therefore the option to purchase them exists. Konami bought one, apparently.

But Konami could very well have exclusivity that could prevent other companies getting involved. And/or the league may simply not want to work with OOTP as well.

[RaUni]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

But Konami could very well have exclusivity that could prevent other companies getting involved. And/or the league may simply not want to work with OOTP as well.

Then OOTP could have said that. Instead they put they would work on getting it? They could've said at this time we cannot have the license because...they didn't. So they didn't give information and they gave false hope with no background. Sounds slimey as the situation.

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[ehalt]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

But Konami could very well have exclusivity that could prevent other companies getting involved. And/or the league may simply not want to work with OOTP as well.

This is more speculation and fanfiction. All those things may be true, but until OOTP releases some statement to that effect, there's no reason to treat it as fact. Furthermore, even if this were true, that's still a problem that's solvable with money. Just negotiate with Konami instead of [redacted]. Even in your hypothetical best-case scenario, they still thought intentionally corrupting save files was preferable to spending money.

[FuzzyRussianHat]

Originally Posted by ehalt

This is more speculation and fanfiction. All those things may be true, but until OOTP releases some statement to that effect, there's no reason to treat it as fact. Furthermore, even if this were true, that's still a problem that's solvable with money. Just negotiate with Konami instead of [redacted]. Even in your hypothetical best-case scenario, they still thought intentionally corrupting save files was preferable to spending money.

You make it sound as if legal threats and wrangling are this easy and simple thing when they very much are not.

Agreed that the radio silence isn't helping OOTP but again, this is probably at the behest of legal consul.

[hobbitrjw]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

This does sort of bring the discussion full circle. I have to say that I think two things are true here:

1. I think it is terrible to go into save games and mess with them. I understand that it's been dictated by the company that purchased the OOTPD that we know. It's a terrible practice and they deserve to lose sales over it.

2. It's insanely reckless to include team and player names with no licensing agreements in place. I haven't checked this, but people here are saying that is the state of things with not just the Japanese league (until recently of course), but also all leagues other than MLB/MiLB/Korean leagues.

If that is true, it is a TERRIBLE decision. I say this as a lawyer. OOTP sells itself on the idea that all the world's leagues are available. It is literally making money on selling what it has no right to sell (if people's descriptions are accurate).

Why not just include the leagues you have the legal right to use? Back in the 2000s, when OOTP had no MLB license, that's what it did. The community had mods up to sort it out. If MLB had ever paid attention, it could have gotten OOTPD to take down links to those mods. It could have gone after individual modders and maybe shut things down. But people's data would have been safe and OOTPD would be shielded from liability.

Instead they chose to sell a thing they didn't have and now we, the customers, reap the consequences.

Since you mentioned the fact that you are a lawyer,do you happen to have any knowledge of whether or not taking such action to mess with save game files for a game that people have PURCHASED,is even legal?

[ehalt]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

You make it sound as if legal threats and wrangling are this easy and simple thing when they very much are not.

Agreed that the radio silence isn't helping OOTP but again, this is probably at the behest of legal consul.

I'm not saying "easy and simple" but I am saying "solvable with money". What's the point of selling out to a big mobile game company who has greater resources if they're not going to solve problems like this with those resources?

[RaUni]

Originally Posted by FuzzyRussianHat

You make it sound as if legal threats and wrangling are this easy and simple thing when they very much are not.



Agreed that the radio silence isn't helping OOTP but again, this is probably at the behest of legal consul.

If they can't say it because of pending lawsuits ... Then they can say they can't comment on it because of pending lawsuits. But thinking they're not allowed to say why they took actions is insane. They definitely can and probably didn't because it will make them look bad. Not make them look worse than purposely damaging their product after selling it, but they aren't saying anything to protect THEMSELVES. Not customers.

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[Bobfather]

Just curious has anyone read the EULA? I have not but I am pretty sure this would have been covered.

[Kobeck]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Don't you think the legal counsel for OOTP and Com2US would have considered all of this before they released the patch?

I dont... no... not in the least

[RaUni]

Originally Posted by hobbitrjw

Since you mentioned the fact that you are a lawyer,do you happen to have any knowledge of whether or not taking such action to mess with save game files for a game that people have PURCHASED,is even legal?

We currently don't own our games in any way. We'd like to think we do, but we don't. Web3 solves that but we're not there yet. We all sign the ToS. We can't resell our digital products, they aren't ours. Best to get that outta anyone's head immediately, so we realize the importance of standing up to these practices. There will be a revolution of digital ownership, and a system where devs/customers/everyone involved in games/entertainment have a symbiotic relationship. That is what is broken in the current system today. I won't go into further details other than this is the dynamic that needs to change in gaming. We own nothing. If anyone ever wants examples of how this is currently changing feel free to PM me, but I won't push anything here.

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[coyotedelmar]

Originally Posted by hefalumps

OK thanks for doing the research everyone.

So coyotedelmar, what happened to Michael Chavis on your save or some of the other guys you mentioned? Why were they scrambled or removed?

I haven't been on since the new patch but going to guess they are still scrambled. As far as I can tell it was because they were playing in the forbidden league at the time I loaded the save. They might have fixed it in new patches, but I'd have to test.

[FleetWalker]

Originally Posted by Bobfather

Just curious has anyone read the EULA? I have not but I am pretty sure this would have been covered.

The EULA is still subject to local law in every jurisdiction in which the product is sold. Altering data on a user's device without getting explicit consent is problematic in a lot of places. It's likely why (as far as I can tell) the logo files haven't been removed from my machine. Deleting files from a user's computer without permission is an even bigger No-No.

Despite what we've all (including me) have been saying, my guess is that the game doesn't actually touch the physical data files users have saved. Instead, at the time the save gets loaded, the game scrambles the names. That way there is no argument that an individual's saved data has been altered. If you could load a pre-update saved game file in a pre-update version of 23 it would likely be fine. Just a hunch though.

[Kobeck]

LOL
https://www.ootpdevelopments.com/out...baseball-home/

still says "Buy Now"

just sayin'