AI Trade "LOGIC"

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I don't work for OOTP so can't comment on their hiring practices. In the end they have the crew they have.

They just rewrote the engine and got blasted for no new features. "I can't see anything new, OOTP is still the same old game with roster update".

Now we want them to add a player communication module to mimic FM? Not a small task and would have to be the marquee feature, I would think. To do it "not half way" would require max effort\coding time and, being new it would still not be right. They will get destroyed in the complaint forum here, at Steam, and everywhere else. I don't like it but that is the way it is.

The point is so many hold up FM as the be-all end-all, and look at how well it all works. When in fact if you go their boards so many long time players simply do not believe it at all. In fact there are many complaints about said player communication on the SI boards. Many will comment they delegate it to their staff because of x,y, or z. Like OOTP they tolerate and work with what the game gives them, talk about what they hope the future holds, and of course comment on how they'll never play the game again until feature x is added or fixed It's really not much different than OOTP other than being on a larger scale.

I've never played FM, so I haven't a clue, but how fast does all the player communication stuff become repetitive Is it really communication, or is it a set multiple choice game of one having a list of 5 or 6 things one can say, with the player having 5 or 6 ways to respond?

[Syd Thrift]

I think that above getting blasted for no new features, I'm seeing a lot of people - many of whom haven't even purchased 23 - blast it for playing differently. Sorry, but rebuilding the engine is going to introduce new issues. Yeah, they can be a bit annoying (although I have to say, other than the "you can cheese steals super hard" thing, I haven't really seen anything major - even the "the uniforms got reworked and even though the old unis still sort of work they won't work as well as the new format" is not, I'm sorry, that big of a deal unless you're playing out games in the early 20th century, in which case you probably have bigger issues than the unis not looking right), but it is indeed a side effect of some much needed updates. Sadly, the flak they received will probably disincentivize them from doing such changes in the future, so this year's engine rework might well be the last we see until/unless they switch to a physics-based, true one-pitch mode (and I say "unless" because it's entirely possible that OOTP never makes this switch).

I also get the notion, frankly, that people just don't play FM as much as people play OOTP in a pure hours-per-version sense. They most certainly don't play it in the breadth of ways people play OOTP. FM is great with any of the higher tier European leagues (which, sure, gives you more leeway than initial OOTP), not as good with lower leagues, pretty trash with 3rd and lower tier leagues, and a buggy mess with anything outside of that. Also, there's no historical play, period; anything you do to make it do "historical" is a mod, unsupported, and probably not terribly realistic (and in fairness, FM would have to deal with ever-changing strategy whereas OOTP simulates a game where the basic way baseball is played has been relatively static).

OOTP also simulates a game where a toooooooon more work has been done with stats and as such has a fanbase that is going to be much, much, much more angry when a top hitter mashes homeruns 10% of the time as compared to 9% of the time (we've even had a long-running debate as to whether guys like Roger Maris in 1961 should average 61 HRs or somewhere in the low 50s; that's several paradigms away from debate in FM). So I'm not sure that FM is even a great comparison in that regard.

So who else? DMB and SOM are single-season sims. As much as people try to use OOTP as SOM lite, they're entirely different games and don't completely appeal to the exact same crowds. There are a couple of basketball games out there that have promise, maybe, but with DDS:PB in particular you're basically locked in to modern basketball (I've had some success with updating the config file in FBB to make it sort of work with historical leagues but that game is a. 8 years old and b. veeeeeeeeery dry). American football would seem to have a bigger audience but there's a game that hasn't been supported for years (FOF), a game that is, not to be mean but very much a single dev's labor of love (DDS:PF), and a game that's a pure game-to-game coach's sim (Pro Strategy Football).

It's clear that, for better or for worse, OOTP has a very specific, carved-out niche that's not quite like anything else.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I've never played FM, so I haven't a clue, but how fast does all the player communication stuff become repetitive Is it really communication, or is it a set multiple choice game of one having a list of 5 or 6 things one can say, with the player having 5 or 6 ways to respond?

I bought this year's version for the first time in years. I intended on getting into a game but, after waiting on the patch cycle to run through, I haven't made it there yet. And if you want to see some complaints read about the match engine and how you can't really start a game until the final patch comes in February. They work on the engine every year and SI gets bombarded with complaints (too many things to try to list) on "how can you release FM every year in this state?". Where were the beta testers? etc. etc. etc.


From earlier versions I liked the feature for giving me that FM feel of dealing with real people (take that in context of a game). But... if you read posts at FM both then and now, like OOTP features, some love and some hate.

It comes down to a lot of user opinions of what's realistic. How the conversations affect the player's morale\performance, reaction to playing time, want to be transferred for unrealistic reasons (things like being benched for one game due to fatigue but takes it as a slight) etc.

There forum is an interesting read if you are an OOTP (any sports sim game) player even if you don't play FM. You'll see the same things you see everywhere else in regard to complaints from "it's the best" to "I'll neve buy it again because SI never fix issue "z".

Too me, like OOTP, it is a great game (wish I had more time to get to it) but..
it is a game. Like all sports sims it has AI issues, features that don't work to some users standards or are just a waste of time that "I shouldn't have to deal with". "The time it took to code player interactions should have went into the game engine". Sounds a lot like here, yes?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I think that above getting blasted for no new features, I'm seeing a lot of people - many of whom haven't even purchased 23 - blast it for playing differently. Sorry, but rebuilding the engine is going to introduce new issues. Yeah, they can be a bit annoying (although I have to say, other than the "you can cheese steals super hard" thing, I haven't really seen anything major - even the "the uniforms got reworked and even though the old unis still sort of work they won't work as well as the new format" is not, I'm sorry, that big of a deal unless you're playing out games in the early 20th century, in which case you probably have bigger issues than the unis not looking right), but it is indeed a side effect of some much needed updates. Sadly, the flak they received will probably disincentivize them from doing such changes in the future, so this year's engine rework might well be the last we see until/unless they switch to a physics-based, true one-pitch mode (and I say "unless" because it's entirely possible that OOTP never makes this switch).

.

Yeah, then add in the type of poster that bought v23, played for 30 minutes, saw it (like every year) was just another roster update, so got a refund.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Comparing OOTP to FM is a futile exercise for the most part. FM is hands down the better video game.

Now if we are talking straight sports sims with the numbers OOTP might have the age.

The fact is OOTP is a video game in the bare sense of the concept. IF you are just loading MLB and Minors and locking everything to sim for results it is pretty damn elite.

OOTP just falls apart if you actually want a true sim/management video game experience. Even titles like Motosport Madness are way ahead of of OOTP. And the new F1 game in August looks better too.

OOTP is great for focusing in a sports stats and outcomes. And just as a player/stat manager game.

But beyond the numbers the players/staff/personnel are completely lifeless. And the GM experience i bare minimum and completely piece mailed together. With bits and pieces not working correctly. Stories, owner goals, personalities, news etc. None of them work like real video game systems and havent been looked at in years and years.

I remember the 1 story about setting up a players charity tanks market size. And it is one of the stories that spawns a lot. And there are almost no ways to increase it. Was it even ever fixed. IF so how long. Why did it even exist in the first place?

I think people were complaining about that 1 since OOTP XX.

When I want to play OOTP it is because I am craving baseball stats, numbers and names. Not because I want a great video game experience.

And yes niche titles that are popular will always have complaints. But FM is a great video game experience even with all the complaining.

But OOTP is a kinda also in the tycoon video game market. There is a lot of crossover. It just doesnt hold up well to any of those titles.

OOTP does baseball day to day good and elite at projections in its sport. If devs wanted OOTP to be a top video game they would have to focus more on the GM side of things and video game elements.

And unless they had a huge staff other aspects of the game would suffer namely historic and fictional. And that is something OOTP devs would never do when they were an independent game studio.


I was just shocked that all of the INT leagues PCM's were totally wrong and mess up long term saves and simple AI trades are really broken in OOTP 23. I mean free agent signings then either trade blocking them or trying to move them in a deal the next month. A couple global trading rules could fix this.

No one is asking for perfect trade AI thats not possible. But simple things that are the essence of MLB trading should be in the game.

[PSUColonel]

One thing I can think of is how organizational goals are handled in FM vs OOP. In FM, they give you a very detailed list of goals, along with a "club culture". This list is for the current year, following year, 5 years etc...they goals do NOT include signing specific players (from what I can tell) and are much more in line with ownership philosophy. (yes ownership has club culture/philosophy)

The club culture is something like "build club from youth program". You can see in OOTP where this could apply to small market teams (except the market sizes fluctuate for some reason) and ownership would want staff and personnel who favor building through the draft, trading high priced vets for prospects, signing young international players etc....

The ownership needs to be consistent in a situation such as this, and hire like minded individuals with similar philosophy. This is where the AI in FM completely outdoes OOTP...in places like this.

In OOTP if ownership had a "win at any cost" club culture, they would prefer scouts and GMs who look to spend big bucks on established vets, trade for established vets, and prioritize MLB scouting. This doesn't mean they should be completely foolish about the future either though. It would just mean they have the money to do things smaller clubs can't afford.

These are the types of AI logic I think some people are talking about. Consistency, and thoughtfulness on some level. Not what appears to be mad randomness. I'm not saying that's always the case, butI can sometimes see where it just looks like spaghetti thrown up against the wall too.

Anyway, like the Chinese seem to do....I am all for ripping off SI's ideas and know how LOL

[oomm]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is something the developers should maybe aware of ....creating staff profiles that jive a bit more, and one's who don't have contradictory attributes. This is something I am glad you mentioned.

There are profiles for strategy settings. Would it be that more difficult to write a series of GM profiles from which one could import? Similar to the strategy settings which has field sliders, one could import a manager profile and tweak it.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by oomm

There are profiles for strategy settings. Would it be that more difficult to write a series of GM profiles from which one could import? Similar to the strategy settings which has field sliders, one could import a manager profile and tweak it.

That's just it, I don't think the user should have to tweak....it should be possible to have numerous similar profiles, with nuanced differences without the need to fool around with editing.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

The fact is OOTP is a video game in the bare sense of the concept. IF you are just loading MLB and Minors and locking everything to sim for results it is pretty damn elite.

OOTP just falls apart if you actually want a true sim/management video game experience. Even titles like Motosport Madness are way ahead of of OOTP. And the new F1 game in August looks better too.

I don't know that "video game" is the right term here, but yes, what I am looking for is a "world game" experience, where I am simply a cog in that world as GM of a team. This means the international & development leagues need to work well and correctly...so does the international signing (soon to be draft) period. It means the finances need to function well, and so does the staff and AI of other clubs. It means I want to convey to my players and staff certain concepts. It means those players and staff should have an opinions of me (and others) and I should consequently have a "reputation".

I feel player development should be part of OOTP in a different way. I think players' capacities to learn on improve skills should be based on a multitude of factors...not just an easy peasy TCR setting. It should depend on individual player makeup, coaches, age, front office direction and other factors.

I feel there should be a news system that creates buzz, and where you can choose what player, leagues, teams etc you want to subscribe to. This helps to create a living, breathing game world that is so immersive you wouldn't know the difference between IT, and reality.

Yes, in some ways it "seems" like there is a role playing component to it, except you are totally in control of decisions you make, and it's a dynamic, living word. There is nothing wrong with things like staff meetings, which help newer players learn since they may not realize all of the features which are present. In this way it becomes push/pull in nature. The meetings help push game concepts onto the user, yet exist on every level for those who know their way around.

Long story short....these are the types of things I would like in a sports management simulation. SI does ALL of these things...the only problem of course...they don't do it for baseball. It's really a shame Markus & SI parted ways all of those years ago, as I can only imagine what OOTP might look like today. The only way I really see it ever getting to this kind of level at this point, is to really heavily invest in the core game, hire new programmers/coders and get the publisher Com2Us behind it. I'm not sure this will ever happen due to a couple of reasons:

1. Its been 24 years, and it hasn't happened yet (almost with SI)

2. Perfect Team is now the money maker. I was under the impression this was going to catapult OOTP into he type of sports management game I am talking about, but it doesn't appear to be going that way. I could be wrong, and I really hope I am.

[Syd Thrift]

I think OOTP is “best” used as more of a toy than a game. A game is something you play against, whereas a toy is something you play with. OOTP is way, way over on the “play with” side of things. I do agree that it could go a lot further with personality than it currently does, although I see people really, really hating on anything that doesn’t have a cards and dice component.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I think OOTP is “best” used as more of a toy than a game. A game is something you play against, whereas a toy is something you play with. OOTP is way, way over on the “play with” side of things. I do agree that it could go a lot further with personality than it currently does, although I see people really, really hating on anything that doesn’t have a cards and dice component.

I think its more OOTPd tried to do some GM/managment stuff which happens to be good ideas. But is absolutely poorly executed and has never been given a second real look.

OOTPd wants OOTP to be the top baseball simulation game in terms of field and stats. Not the best management sim game in terms of general managing or tycoon etc.

As much as i like the idea OOTPd came up with for GM they are all so poorly executed that I am forced to turn them all off because they are either broke by design or forgotten or useless.

Yes OOTP has personality but its basically an on/off switch. What needs to be done is the ratings of a player expanded. Not to just typical baseball "tools" scouting but intangibles. That is what makes players come to life.

FM I actually care about my players I even kept players on my B team or found my low league players and brought them back for a retirement run. And I care about selling some and hate others.

When I play OOTP none of the players come off the page. Hitters get there 5 ratings and thats its. Every player/personnel in OOTP is bland.

They should have like 15-30 rating categories. To actually make everyone individual and jump off the page.

OOTP is just so numbers/stats driven. And it does excel at that. If that is all users like then they will love OOTP. Its just if you want more. An actual sports management game then OOTP fails because it does try.

They would be better off stripping the engine of all the management stuff none of it works.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

I think its more OOTPd tried to do some GM/managment stuff which happens to be good ideas. But is absolutely poorly executed and has never been given a second real look.

OOTPd wants OOTP to be the top baseball simulation game in terms of field and stats. Not the best management sim game in terms of general managing or tycoon etc.

As much as i like the idea OOTPd came up with for GM they are all so poorly executed that I am forced to turn them all off because they are either broke by design or forgotten or useless.

Yes OOTP has personality but its basically an on/off switch. What needs to be done is the ratings of a player expanded. Not to just typical baseball "tools" scouting but intangibles. That is what makes players come to life.

FM I actually care about my players I even kept players on my B team or found my low league players and brought them back for a retirement run. And I care about selling some and hate others.

When I play OOTP none of the players come off the page. Hitters get there 5 ratings and thats its. Every player/personnel in OOTP is bland.

They should have like 15-30 rating categories. To actually make everyone individual and jump off the page.

OOTP is just so numbers/stats driven. And it does excel at that. If that is all users like then they will love OOTP. Its just if you want more. An actual sports management game then OOTP fails because it does try.

They would be better off stripping the engine of all the management stuff none of it works.

I would also like to see all of those different rating categories, some known, such as what FM would describe as "professionalism", "relationships to other players and coaches" also perhaps languages spoken and cultural identity (I just made that one up) but most of them like FM, should be hidden. That's what makes the players come to life, you can just look at a rating and decide based on a number.

In fact, most things in FM aren't based on numbers, but rather sentences or paragraphs describing tendencies and/or descriptions. SO while there a most certainly a lot of numbers hiding under the hood, the beautiful part of FM, is they successful conceal it with creative and varied writing. In fact, I would argue when it comes to writing, less can be more. You only need a sentence per tool. So you could have a line for each tool in OOTP....the scouting reports attempt to do this, but I like the way it's setup in FM better...this way you don't need a paragraph to describe a player, but rather a line or sentence for each attribute/tool. You could even have the little graphic buttons representing each skill/tool

Things such as:

"player X is a reasonably good contact hitter"

"player X shows advanced power for a player his age, and could still improve.


you get the idea. Here is a screen shot in FM to show people what I mean.

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I would also like to see all of those different rating categories, some known, such as what FM would describe as "professionalism", "relationships to other players and coaches" also perhaps languages spoken and cultural identity (I just made that one up) but most of them like FM, should be hidden. That's what makes the players come to life, you can just look at a rating and decide based on a number.

In fact, most things in FM aren't based on numbers, but rather sentences or paragraphs describing tendencies and/or descriptions. SO while there a most certainly a lot of numbers hiding under the hood, the beautiful part of FM, is they successful conceal it with creative and varied writing. In fact, I would argue when it comes to writing, less can be more. You only need a sentence per tool. So you could have a line for each tool in OOTP....the scouting reports attempt to do this, but I like the way it's setup in FM better...this way you don't need a paragraph to describe a player, but rather a line or sentence for each attribute/tool. You could even have the little graphic buttons representing each skill/tool

Things such as:

"player X is a reasonably good contact hitter"

"player X shows advanced power for a player his age, and could still improve.


you get the idea. Here is a screen shot in FM to show people what I mean.

"Fairly inconsistent" AND doesn't enjoy big matches? Hard pass for me..

But in all seriousness, I agree with this. I tried playing stats only for the first time this year and I started looking over scouting reports and just thought, "That's it? That's all that I get?"

Its hard to say that I want OOTP to just be more like FM. That's not exactly the point. I'd agree with you on the influx of cash from PT and the new ownership. Personally, I didn't see much of a sim engine issue from like OOTP20 or so on. I had (and still have) concerns about the number of K's some hitters collect. I think there are way too many guys striking out over 200 times, personally.

But I would have liked to see something like an expansion of the personality system and interaction system as a true new feature.

That and GM tendencies, which gets back to the core of this thread. I just want good AI to AI trades, and a GM who acts as a complete entity instead of fragmented ones that handle Free Agency, Trading etc.

[progen]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I think that above getting blasted for no new features, I'm seeing a lot of people - many of whom haven't even purchased 23 - blast it for playing differently. Sorry, but rebuilding the engine is going to introduce new issues. Yeah, they can be a bit annoying (although I have to say, other than the "you can cheese steals super hard" thing, I haven't really seen anything major - even the "the uniforms got reworked and even though the old unis still sort of work they won't work as well as the new format" is not, I'm sorry, that big of a deal unless you're playing out games in the early 20th century, in which case you probably have bigger issues than the unis not looking right), but it is indeed a side effect of some much needed updates. Sadly, the flak they received will probably disincentivize them from doing such changes in the future, so this year's engine rework might well be the last we see until/unless they switch to a physics-based, true one-pitch mode (and I say "unless" because it's entirely possible that OOTP never makes this switch).

I also get the notion, frankly, that people just don't play FM as much as people play OOTP in a pure hours-per-version sense. They most certainly don't play it in the breadth of ways people play OOTP. FM is great with any of the higher tier European leagues (which, sure, gives you more leeway than initial OOTP), not as good with lower leagues, pretty trash with 3rd and lower tier leagues, and a buggy mess with anything outside of that. Also, there's no historical play, period; anything you do to make it do "historical" is a mod, unsupported, and probably not terribly realistic (and in fairness, FM would have to deal with ever-changing strategy whereas OOTP simulates a game where the basic way baseball is played has been relatively static).

OOTP also simulates a game where a toooooooon more work has been done with stats and as such has a fanbase that is going to be much, much, much more angry when a top hitter mashes homeruns 10% of the time as compared to 9% of the time (we've even had a long-running debate as to whether guys like Roger Maris in 1961 should average 61 HRs or somewhere in the low 50s; that's several paradigms away from debate in FM). So I'm not sure that FM is even a great comparison in that regard.

So who else? DMB and SOM are single-season sims. As much as people try to use OOTP as SOM lite, they're entirely different games and don't completely appeal to the exact same crowds. There are a couple of basketball games out there that have promise, maybe, but with DDS:PB in particular you're basically locked in to modern basketball (I've had some success with updating the config file in FBB to make it sort of work with historical leagues but that game is a. 8 years old and b. veeeeeeeeery dry). American football would seem to have a bigger audience but there's a game that hasn't been supported for years (FOF), a game that is, not to be mean but very much a single dev's labor of love (DDS:PF), and a game that's a pure game-to-game coach's sim (Pro Strategy Football).

It's clear that, for better or for worse, OOTP has a very specific, carved-out niche that's not quite like anything else.

For the most part Syd, I like reading your posts, as well asSweed's posts regarding the game. I've been playing since OOTP4, but in all those years, really don't "drill down" to the nitty gritty of the game like you two do. I think, for the most part, your posts are fairly objective, and mostly helpful.

But as far as your comment about FM and pretty much only enjoying it if you're in the "higher leagues", and "trash" at the lower leagues, I would disagree. One of the most enjoyable parts, at least for me, is taking a lower level club(level 4 in the game-League 2, no mods, or with a mod, going to say level 6 or 7, or lower if you like), and seeing how far you can go with that club. And I've played as much FM, as I have OOTP at this point, as they are my "go to" games.

And I really like the whole "applying for a job" process in FM, and something I wish OOTP would take a look at, and it's something I've been wanting for years. If you start out unemployed, it's a lot of fun to compare offerings you might get with the lower-level clubs. What's their payroll, and any debt they have? Where did they finish in the league last year? Do I want to interview with them? For me, it makes the whole experience of starting your career so much more realistic. I'll usually get an email with a lower level club, asking me for an interview. But almost always, not any higher than 6-7, because my reputation is so low.

And just for kicks sometimes, I'll appIy for an opening at a club at the Championship Level(level 2), and the response is, they find it comical that I applied, something like that, and my application gets rejected, as well it should. After a bit of time, I find that I may have 2-3 offers, and then I can decide which one I want to take. A lot of factors to consider, as mentioned earlier. OOTP really falls short in this area, actually is non-existent.

And I haven't found "bugs" to be an issue when playing at lower levels, and with, or without the mod used for my version of the game. I found just the opposite, that the creator of the mod has spent hours on researching the various clubs, and adding them to the correct leagues, updated players, and pretty much spot on with the ratings.

But I will say, as you mentioned, there are a lot of things apparently "hard coded" in FM, that really restricts you to not being able to add leagues as easy as OOTP, or say one or two "brand new clubs" to an existing league.

I've used the "Create A Club" option before, but there you have to delete a current club in the league you choose, and then create your club. And I know there's an "out of game editor" that helps with this, but for me, it's not very user friendly.

I'll eventually purchase OOTP23, but currently, with what I read here, and more importantly, the feedback I'm getting from friends who have purchased 23, I'm in no rush to move off of 22.

[Syd Thrift]

OK, so "trash" wasn't exactly the right term. It's fun, sure. I like the way they handle scouting, which differs heavily from OOTP in that it's a tools-based rather than a results based approach (which I think comes down to more of a way baseball is played compared to soccer). I love the player personality and all the interactions you can make, from yelling at them during a game (this might not be so much of a thing for baseball but surely OOTP could have periodic clubhouse meetings and the like) to telling a player exactly what his role will be when you sign him. And of course it's a lot of fun to work with the game's strategic options.

It's not super realistic and to some extent decisions were made precisely to make it less realistic and more enjoyable: that whole notion that you can take a team sitting outside of the League in England and bring them all the way to a Premier League title is, well, risible, for instance. On top of that, lower level teams don't really play like lower level teams, I think in part because the game doesn't really "understand" the difference between pro and semi-pro and full-on amateur in terms of the amount of time these players have to train, how well they can stay in shape when they have day jobs, and so on. There are mods to add in even lower tier than the traditional "non League" level that you have for England, for instance, but they are fun to look at but so unrealistic as to be basically unplayable (that's kind of what I was thinking when I was thinking "trash") in large part because the game can't go below 1-20 (I think the reality is, once you get down to those levels everyone's a. playing for fun and b. are in varying levels of shape, and that's probably the biggest thing a "manager" interested in more than "hey boys, kick the ball towards the goal" would have to worry about).

I don't want that to say that you can't have fun doing the lower-league stuff that I mentioned. It's just... it's not just that it's mildly realistic like some of the things that happen when you use completely fictional leagues in OOTP, I mean that you can play these games and they can be fun but they're fun in the way that, like, X-COM is fun, i.e. fun in a way that is untethered to reality.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by progen

For the most part Syd, I like reading your posts, as well asSweed's posts regarding the game. I've been playing since OOTP4, but in all those years, really don't "drill down" to the nitty gritty of the game like you two do. I think, for the most part, your posts are fairly objective, and mostly helpful.

But as far as your comment about FM and pretty much only enjoying it if you're in the "higher leagues", and "trash" at the lower leagues, I would disagree. One of the most enjoyable parts, at least for me, is taking a lower level club(level 4 in the game-League 2, no mods, or with a mod, going to say level 6 or 7, or lower if you like), and seeing how far you can go with that club. And I've played as much FM, as I have OOTP at this point, as they are my "go to" games.

And I really like the whole "applying for a job" process in FM, and something I wish OOTP would take a look at, and it's something I've been wanting for years. If you start out unemployed, it's a lot of fun to compare offerings you might get with the lower-level clubs. What's their payroll, and any debt they have? Where did they finish in the league last year? Do I want to interview with them? For me, it makes the whole experience of starting your career so much more realistic. I'll usually get an email with a lower level club, asking me for an interview. But almost always, not any higher than 6-7, because my reputation is so low.

And just for kicks sometimes, I'll appIy for an opening at a club at the Championship Level(level 2), and the response is, they find it comical that I applied, something like that, and my application gets rejected, as well it should. After a bit of time, I find that I may have 2-3 offers, and then I can decide which one I want to take. A lot of factors to consider, as mentioned earlier. OOTP really falls short in this area, actually is non-existent.

And I haven't found "bugs" to be an issue when playing at lower levels, and with, or without the mod used for my version of the game. I found just the opposite, that the creator of the mod has spent hours on researching the various clubs, and adding them to the correct leagues, updated players, and pretty much spot on with the ratings.

But I will say, as you mentioned, there are a lot of things apparently "hard coded" in FM, that really restricts you to not being able to add leagues as easy as OOTP, or say one or two "brand new clubs" to an existing league.

I've used the "Create A Club" option before, but there you have to delete a current club in the league you choose, and then create your club. And I know there's an "out of game editor" that helps with this, but for me, it's not very user friendly.

I'll eventually purchase OOTP23, but currently, with what I read here, and more importantly, the feedback I'm getting from friends who have purchased 23, I'm in no rush to move off of 22.

I believe they are now selling a separate editor that can easily do the type of things we are accustomed to doing in OOTP. I haven’t tried it and have no opinion on it however. Maybe if I ever really get to the point of knowing what I’m doing I will…but until then I’ll wait and see.

Incidentally I do pay an annual subscription to “sortitoutsi”. For me, a yearly fee of $10-$15 is worth being able to download all of the logos, uniforms (kits) face packs and other enhancements knowing they are always complete, up to date and easy. No fuss no muss.

FM is a larger sim in many ways…size, scope and price. But for what I get, I’m willing to pay some more. For me FM turns out to be about a $70 investment each year. I hear people talk about restaurants all the time, and many will say they don’t mind paying more if the quality is there. With FM the quality is there…and I don’t find myself having to to do any leg work for mods…as the community is huge and is actually very professional in their approach. You should see some of the YouTube channel tutorials, guides and strategy by FMScout and others. WOW! It really will make you jealous.

Now, this isn’t to mean OOTP is chopped liver, because obviously it’s far from that, or we wouldn’t all be here. In fact for what people get for their money, I think it’s a great value. I think many of us just like to dream on what we think OOTP could’ve or could be in terms of potential. I know Markus learned an awful lot from his days at SI, and the OOTP we have today can be greatly attributed to that experience I think. I guess the problem is Markus has been gone from SI for about 15 years now. I’m sure he still has a lot of friends and counterparts in the industry, and I’m sure they talk “shop” frequently, but it’s likely no substitute for the time he spent there on a daily basis.

I suppose you could say FM is the superstar player getting paid the big bucks that better deliver, while OOTP is the promising prospect under club control, where a team is getting good value for its investment without the constant pressure of having to be performing at the highest level each and every day.

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

OK, so "trash" wasn't exactly the right term. It's fun, sure. I like the way they handle scouting, which differs heavily from OOTP in that it's a tools-based rather than a results based approach (which I think comes down to more of a way baseball is played compared to soccer). I love the player personality and all the interactions you can make, from yelling at them during a game (this might not be so much of a thing for baseball but surely OOTP could have periodic clubhouse meetings and the like) to telling a player exactly what his role will be when you sign him. And of course it's a lot of fun to work with the game's strategic options.

It's not super realistic and to some extent decisions were made precisely to make it less realistic and more enjoyable: that whole notion that you can take a team sitting outside of the League in England and bring them all the way to a Premier League title is, well, risible, for instance. On top of that, lower level teams don't really play like lower level teams, I think in part because the game doesn't really "understand" the difference between pro and semi-pro and full-on amateur in terms of the amount of time these players have to train, how well they can stay in shape when they have day jobs, and so on. There are mods to add in even lower tier than the traditional "non League" level that you have for England, for instance, but they are fun to look at but so unrealistic as to be basically unplayable (that's kind of what I was thinking when I was thinking "trash") in large part because the game can't go below 1-20 (I think the reality is, once you get down to those levels everyone's a. playing for fun and b. are in varying levels of shape, and that's probably the biggest thing a "manager" interested in more than "hey boys, kick the ball towards the goal" would have to worry about).

I don't want that to say that you can't have fun doing the lower-league stuff that I mentioned. It's just... it's not just that it's mildly realistic like some of the things that happen when you use completely fictional leagues in OOTP, I mean that you can play these games and they can be fun but they're fun in the way that, like, X-COM is fun, i.e. fun in a way that is untethered to reality.

You really couldnt be more wrong about FM. Let's not forget that the Premier League itself is 30 years old this season. Leicester City was a 3rd tier team not even 20 years ago and they wont he Premier League a few seasons back. Blackburn was the first to do something great back in the 1994-95 season. Hell, even Manchester City was in League One as recently as 1998-99.

If you're talking specifically about England everyone dreams of the Premier League. Teams like Sunderland have meteoric drops and need to be rebuilt. Fulham yo-yo's back and forth year to year. Nottingham Forest, a team that used to be a pretty solid team in England years ago, is returning to the Premier League for the first time since 1998-99.

I think if you want to talk about "realism" the game is far more realistic than OOTP. I'm a huge Wolves fan, for example, and I'm four seasons into my save right now and fighting for my life to keep Ruben Neves on the team because he wants to move on to a bigger club. We're playing Euro Football but he wants Championship, a team with a better reputation.

If I'm playing as Manchester United and I sign a Man City staple the fans will look at that poorly and you will SEE the displeasure of the fans if you review the transfers you've made and the grades you are given for them. Its not like OOTP where I can be in second place with the Red Sox and offer a prospect package to the first place Yankees for Gerritt Cole.

If I'm playing as a lower tier team that's a semi-pro team, for example, I get less practice time with my players. Also my budget is considerably smaller and my roster is smaller as a result, so I have to reevaluate exactly how I structure my team if I want to "win now" because you're not going to be able to build a dynasty through my youth setup for years to come.

And teams like Wrexham and Salford City pop up in England (and Wales) that have sizeable investments made and leadership that makes them a draw to players in Salford City's case. These teams arent built overnight through high draft picks, free agency signings, and trades. You need to build a reputation, grow your entire club, and manage almost every aspect of your team.

ALL of that is represented in this game, and all of it is possible.

[Syd Thrift]

I appreciate Leicester et al but when I say non league I don’t mean “not in the Premiership”, I mean, “not in the Football League”, which is I want to say the top 5 tiers. The list of teams who have ever moved up from even the 4th tier to the first in football history is very low. 6th? I’d be surprised if there’s anyone. It’s semi pro teams in tiny markets or “work” teams at that level and as fun as it is to promote someone like York City FC (who are even in the League now at the 5th tier) all the way to the Premiership, this is simply not a thing that could ever happen IRL.

Championship to the EPL ? Sure. League One? Maybe, although I’d be skeptical you could build a team that could stay there without some big time demographics changes. Non-League? Sorry man, it ain’t happening.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Since we are fully side tracked....

I would say the vast majority of FM players have 0% chance to take a non league team to Tier 1. If you follow the various forums, discords, and reddit you can see how much people struggle.

Yes streamers and youtubers can do it. And say like 20% of the players have a chance but the vast majority no chance.

There is a difficulty factor but beyond that it is a huge time suck. You are talking 10-15 years of in game time.

The last time I did england Tier 10 to Europe Championship winner took me 30-35 years in game time and well over 1200 hours of game play in FM20.

Syd you are really making it look way easier then it really is. You need to know the game inside and out. Micro manage everything. Plan moves years in advance and still need some luck. Even the big twitch/youtubers take 2-3 decades to do it.

Honestly I think it is much harder to "Game" the FM logic then OOTP. OOTP from a GM standpoint is completely unrealistic and extremely gamey.

OOTP excels at realism in stats and whats going on in the field. FM finance, world, logic, management are leagues beyond OOTP.

Just like OOTP is probably the better sim on the field for stats. But FM crushes OOTP in terms of 3d animations.

Again it is a little unfair the comparisons. I just think OOTPd has different goals then SI and FM.

The problem us GM and management junkies have with OOTP/OOTPd is they TEASE us with features but then are jury rigged, broken or dont work. If those features wouldnt exist it couldnt be compared to FM cause there would be no common ground. But since OOTP teases it then it leaves itself open to huge criticism.

[oomm]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

...they TEASE us with features but then are jury rigged, broken or dont work. If those features wouldnt exist it couldnt be compared to FM cause there would be no common ground. But since OOTP teases it then it leaves itself open to huge criticism.

Yes