Cleveland Indians / Guardians

[Primary]

Originally Posted by TwinsTHunter

Calling a baseball team "Indians" does not honor their heritage in any way whatsoever.

also changing that teams name to something else doesn't erase any of that history in any sense of the word lol. goofy post

[Scott83]

Originally Posted by nutt

Did you not read ANYTHING Markus said? Apparently not. If not, let me break it down in ELI5 terms:



This means the Cleveland Guardians, owned by the Dolan Family, in accordance with MLB.



Which also means for Diamond Dynasty in MLB 22: The Show, the historical Topps cards have to be digitally altered, as well as the Indians logo replaced with the "C" logo.

This also means their name change is that the Dolan Family owns the rights to Cleveland Indians® and is NOT to be used for profit or marketing by Major League Baseball.



Which means any game using the likeness of MLB in association with the MLBPA CANNOT use the Cleveland Indians moniker. Would you risk your tone deaf stubbornness to lose a licensing agreement, which in theory, if this was your company, could lead to the demise of a product, if not the entire company? I think not.



See above in retrospect to the registered trademark. Don't like it? Just buy OOTP22 and stick with it.

Wow! Talk about patronising or what! I’m pretty sure he understood everything - he was only expressing his dismay at how pc the world has suddenly gone. He’s not the first and he won’t be the last.

As I say I found your reply patronising and condescending - should maybe take the halo off and step down from your high horse there.

[BigRed75]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

two caribou playing tennis with a sausage

That is....quite an image

And one of the greatest euphemisms I've ever seen

[ChrisJNelson]

Originally Posted by fifthorkid

Just wait, the Braves will be the next ones to be forced to change.

As a Braves fan, I hope so.

[ChrisJNelson]

Originally Posted by Excelcius

Sorry, the native americans, not the Indians. One is right to recall the history behind the issue ... all of it. The Native Americans were honorable and hospitable to our ancestors. Many of our ancestors were wrong with the way they ended up treating them. Therefore, we owe it to our Native Americans to celebrate and honor their heritage and them as a people. Instead of focusing on that we are erasing them from history. Is their lives really going to benefit because we changed a sports teams name? Are we missing an opportunity to raise the bar for them?

Getting rid of simple racist things doesn’t preclude us from making bigger, most substantial improvements to society. It’s not either/or. We shouldn’t have racist, dehumanizing mascots, period. Seems pretty obvious. Maybe it’s not the biggest impact in the world but it’s better than not doing it.

[fredbeene]

i know the some of the marketing team, this has little to do Indians , it is a play to ensure maximum royalties is funneled into Guardians.....easier to do if you can wipe history and competition away .......
no throw back jersey days (you know those blood red racist uniforms) will be allowed either

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by David Watts

And at the right time as well, otherwise your team history will get mangled. Plus, how is this going to effect uniform mods?

I always take care of that the first day of the off season (right after the game loaded the new rookies and teams) in my simulation. But that will be weird to do it for another era than the 19th century this time since the game teams and structure were correct after the 1900 season.


And I know that I will never reached 2022 so Cleveland in my game will be the Blues, the Spiders, the Bronchos, the Naps, the Indians but never the Guardians... that's life nothing I can't do about it.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by ChrisJNelson

Getting rid of simple racist things doesn’t preclude us from making bigger, most substantial improvements to society. It’s not either/or. We shouldn’t have racist, dehumanizing mascots, period. Seems pretty obvious. Maybe it’s not the biggest impact in the world but it’s better than not doing it.

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by TwinsTHunter

Calling a baseball team "Indians" does not honor their heritage in any way whatsoever.

But it does if a team is called
Vikings
Trojans
Celtics
Spartans
etc. ?
I think the answer is the same whether these or Indian names. Yes. that was and still is the intent.


I think most agree that teams were not given the name Indians, Braves, Chiefs, etc. as a way to denigrate themselves. Especially after paying the cost to start said teams? IOW the teams were not named as a racist insult. It wouldn't make sense.

If we went back in time and the owners, all white, had banded together and prohibited Indian related names what would the conversation be today? Would some be asking "why aren't\weren't they included?". These owners were racists.

I don't know just seem to me saying one's historical ancestors being strong men that should be feared and fought bravely is not an insult. I think that was the idea with the Euro\Caucasian named teams listed above, "opponents should fear us". Same with all of the Indian type names.

All of those teams listed above have caricatures and most weapons of war. Sure the "smiling Indian" and a few others look very bad and needed to be removed. But a Chief, Brave, spear, tomahawk doesn't say racism to me. No different than a war axe, sword, horned helmet, etc. Anything that mocks should be gone. A tomahawk chop is done to mock? An Indian on a horse mocks? But.. A Trojan on a horse is ok. A Viking swinging an axe is ok. It all portrays a team that plays hard to win to my eye. All are fine IMHO.

Too never have had these names would seem more racist to me. To have the early owners say "nobody will name their teams Indians, Braves, etc.", in the context of the times, what else would that be? The more I think about it the more I'm surprised Indian names were used at all pre 1960's.

[Excelcius]

Well said Sweed!

[Fabtron7]

The indigenous people of America got the name Indians because dumbass Christopher Columbus thought he was in India when he “discovered” America… Seems like a great name to honor them.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by TwinsTHunter

Also, the fact that they aren't "Indians" so the name never made sense to honor their heritage.

I agree that this shouldn't even be an issue. Thanks for the update, Markus.

These Indians disagree https://sanmanuel-nsn.gov/ https://www.choctaw.org/ https://www.cahuilla.net/ http://www.gtbindians.org/

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

The indigenous people of America got the name Indians because dumbass Christopher Columbus thought he was in India when he “discovered” America… Seems like a great name to honor them.

And if he had known he landed in a undiscovered land, from the "old world's" point of view? Someone (Columbus himself?) would have named it. Indians would have been called something other than Indians and we'd be having the same discussion with a different name. Not seeing the relevance.

Also in that context then they aren't really the Indigenous people of America are they? America is a European word.

Isn't the issue whether using any words, not just Indian, referencing Native Americans\Indians is racist, derogatory, etc.?

[Mr. Marlin]

I have to say that demanding removal all references to the team name in historical simulation play is extremely annoying. I wonder if this will apply to teams like the Spokane or Indianapolis Indians who are not affiliated with Cleveland and not controlled by the Dolan family? Probably not. But as for Cleveland, it's the Dolan's property. If they say you can't do it then you can't do it. In OOTP you can change the name to anything you like.

[Mr. Marlin]

Originally Posted by Sweed

And if he had known he landed in a undiscovered land, from the "old world's" point of view? Someone (Columbus himself?) would have named it. Indians would have been called something other than Indians and we'd be having the same discussion with a different name. Not seeing the relevance.

Also in that context then they aren't really the Indigenous people of America are they? America is a European word.

Isn't the issue whether using any words, not just Indian, referencing Native Americans\Indians is racist, derogatory, etc.?

LOL now there is a deep rabbit hole! Since all non-slavic European languages are derived from Latin and came following Roman conquest and forced assimilation ALL nationality names are technically racist! Probably a good thing too. Have you ever heard Welsh or Gaelic spoken? They hard hard on the ears!

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

The indigenous people of America got the name Indians because dumbass Christopher Columbus thought he was in India when he “discovered” America… Seems like a great name to honor them.

You do realize that Columbus never set foot in North America....he landed in the Bahamas, so he did not name anyone.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

i know the some of the marketing team, this has little to do Indians , it is a play to ensure maximum royalties is funneled into Guardians.....easier to do if you can wipe history and competition away .......
no throw back jersey days (you know those blood red racist uniforms) will be allowed either

The whole thing started with Chief Wahoo, not the nickname. The group of 20 or so that used to protest on opening day were more about changing the logo than they were about changing the name. My great uncle knew one of the organizers of the group in the early 80s, and he was all about the logo, did not care about the nickname. Once they changed to the 'C', he said his job was done, but like you said MLB and the Dolan's saw $$ that would come with the new merch.

How are the red uniforms from the 70s racist? They won't be used because they say Indians on the front, has nothing to do with the color. Does this mean Boston will have to change too?

[tward13]

Originally Posted by Excelcius

For me it does and it should!

For one, calling them "Indians", and for another, having a stupid grinning red man for a logo, does NOT honor them.

[TC Dale]

Just to let you all know we are keeping an eye on the thread, and if things start to be a problem, we will be editing and warning people as needed. If you can't discuss things without going into a frenzy of OT type posting, try to discuss and keep it within the boundaries of the main forums.

Thanks guys.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by tward13

For one, calling them "Indians", and for another, having a stupid grinning red man for a logo, does NOT honor them.

As someone who is Native American, I love it when someone tells us what does and does not honor us. 99% of the Native American community never cared what a professional sports team was called or what their logo looked like. In fact my 90 year old grandmother, who is 100% Cherokee, loved the Cleveland Indians and did not like that the caved into the "loud" 1%....but you know what? She has watched every Guardians game this season so far and really doesn't care what they are called, she just loves her baseball team.

So can we just stop with the arguing back and forth over what the owners of a business did with their property and that OOTP is following the terms of a license agreement and just be happy that in 7 days, the new game will be out and for those that want the Indians name back, just change it in the game and for those that like the change, just play the game....no need to flex those internet muscles and come here and post about it.

[nutt]

Originally Posted by Scott83

Wow! Talk about patronising or what! I’m pretty sure he understood everything - he was only expressing his dismay at how pc the world has suddenly gone. He’s not the first and he won’t be the last.

As I say I found your reply patronising and condescending - should maybe take the halo off and step down from your high horse there.

As it was supposed to be. Sorry you feel that way but have a blessed one.