Unrealistic Events

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by Tie Montana

Rangers trading Lafreniere to Isles for 1st round pick

I think it'd be a major step forward if the AI considered geography and local rivalries, especially when it comes to blockbuster trades. IRL, there's barely any mathematical chance the Rangers would send Lafreniere to (what amounts to) their cross-town rivals.

GM's have a grave reluctance to trade a star player to a team they play a lot during the season, instead usually opting for the other conference to minimize the opportunities for said player to come back and haunt them.

Would be great to see this modeled in the game.

[oldfatbaldguy]

You're two years ahead of real life, though. How are the prospects developing? Is Edvinsson what the Red Wings thought he'd be at 20? (Two stars?) Where was he on their D depth chart before the trade? I see Johansson is fourth now, and they like Tuomisto's upside.

Your save game should have been a snap shot of real life two game-years ago, before you hit the continue button for the first time. After that, it has a life of its own. I see other players on that depth chart in spots I wouldn't expect. Suter is below Stephens. Erne is the second right wing, and OK, they have only two on the active roster, but Berggren is still in the minors and has only three-star potential?

[gord]

I was going to post a thread on this but it seems it has already been addressed. I was able to pick up players like Aho, Shane Wright and even some of my own FAs very late in the offseason for very cheap because they weren't being signed. The players' demands dropped from ~$9M/year down to less than $5M/year so I was able to sign multiple 4-5 star players around Sept 1 and stay well under the cap. This started happening around 2028 or so.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed was restricted FAs not signing with anyone for several years.

[Nickphillies]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

You're two years ahead of real life, though. How are the prospects developing? Is Edvinsson what the Red Wings thought he'd be at 20? (Two stars?) Where was he on their D depth chart before the trade? I see Johansson is fourth now, and they like Tuomisto's upside.

Your save game should have been a snap shot of real life two game-years ago, before you hit the continue button for the first time. After that, it has a life of its own. I see other players on that depth chart in spots I wouldn't expect. Suter is below Stephens. Erne is the second right wing, and OK, they have only two on the active roster, but Berggren is still in the minors and has only three-star potential?

Something I'm thinking, based on how it works in OOTP/FM/etc.) affects the AI GM's decisions is the ratings of said GM. If they have crap Evaluate Ratings/Evaluate Potential then it'd stand to reason that they will make, what we perceive as poor depth chart management. Just food for thought.

[Tie Montana]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

You're two years ahead of real life, though. How are the prospects developing? Is Edvinsson what the Red Wings thought he'd be at 20? (Two stars?) Where was he on their D depth chart before the trade? I see Johansson is fourth now, and they like Tuomisto's upside.

Your save game should have been a snap shot of real life two game-years ago, before you hit the continue button for the first time. After that, it has a life of its own. I see other players on that depth chart in spots I wouldn't expect. Suter is below Stephens. Erne is the second right wing, and OK, they have only two on the active roster, but Berggren is still in the minors and has only three-star potential?

What are u talking about... There is no way any GM in NHL would trade 6th overall pick after 2 season without giving him chance in NHL (1 in SHL, 1 in AHL) to Sonny Milano level player :-DDD and top of that send that player (Milano) instantly to waivers. Thats nonsense.

[belial1134]

Originally Posted by gord

I was going to post a thread on this but it seems it has already been addressed. I was able to pick up players like Aho, Shane Wright and even some of my own FAs very late in the offseason for very cheap because they weren't being signed. The players' demands dropped from ~$9M/year down to less than $5M/year so I was able to sign multiple 4-5 star players around Sept 1 and stay well under the cap. This started happening around 2028 or so.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed was restricted FAs not signing with anyone for several years.

yeah, you (and the AI) can sometimes find some ridiculous good deals on UFAs. I had one player I couldn't afford (6 or 7 mil a year) and sometime next season another team signed him for $750K/1 year.


I picked up a UFA 5 star goalie for a few million/4 years. He then went on to have 4 seasons with 48-50 wins and GAA under 2.00 in all 4 season. He had a crazy amount of shutouts too. Think he had 12 in one year alone and finished his career with 46 (which in my game was ranked #1 for the Penguins)


And yes, I do see some 4 to 5 star players sitting out for 1 or 2 years before he is signed (such as my aforementioned 5 star goalie who missed 2 years before I signed him)

[Tie Montana]

I started a new save with Calgary after recent update. I decided to do little retooling and trade Johnny Gaudreau. These were the best offers i got and i tried to shop him multiple times between september and december. Like what the f.... And yeah, i can understand that those were 1st offers. I tried to negotiate with them and always when i asked 1st round draft pick answer was "were not willing to move high draft pick that cheaply". Gaudreau is a monster in this game. Look up his stats... he is elite. 100% in real life someone is willing to pay ATLEAST 1st round draft pick (Couple days ago in real life Calgary paid 1st rounder to get Toffoli) and honestly even probably a lot more. Im so frustrated. It has been so many problems and unrealistic sh*t happening this year that its unreal... Game has been basically unplayable whole time if you appreciate it goes even approximately realistic pathway.

[Adam B]

When you shop a player, or rather shopping a player in FHM is different than OOTP. You're getting offers based not just on the player's production.

Basically, shopping a player in FHM is you basically telling the other GMs that you want to move this player immediately. You're not looking for the best deal. You're looking for the easiest and quickest way to get them out. The offers you get back represent that. You have a player on the last year of their contract, at a not insignificant number.

You will get substantially better offers by placing the player on the trade block and waiting for them to come in.

[renojedi]

Originally Posted by Adam B

When you shop a player, or rather shopping a player in FHM is different than OOTP. You're getting offers based not just on the player's production.

Basically, shopping a player in FHM is you basically telling the other GMs that you want to move this player immediately. You're not looking for the best deal. You're looking for the easiest and quickest way to get them out. The offers you get back represent that. You have a player on the last year of their contract, at a not insignificant number.

You will get substantially better offers by placing the player on the trade block and waiting for them to come in.

Didn't know this so it makes a lot more sense. When I had guys who were good but I was going to have to put them on waivers because I didn't have room for them on the team, I always wondered why shopping a 3 star 25-year old only got me 6th round picks or a 1.5 - 2 star guy in return! I guess I assumed it was the same as OOTP so thanks again for clearing this up, Adam!

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by Adam B

Basically, shopping a player in FHM is you basically telling the other GMs that you want to move this player immediately. You're not looking for the best deal.

You will get substantially better offers by placing the player on the trade block and waiting for them to come in.

Okay, this is a really important distinction. And to be honest, it explains a lot about game performance. Thanks for the info. Will endeavor to keep in mind moving forward.

[Tie Montana]

i see young players like this not signing even tho team has cap to sign.. this game is started after recent update

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by Tie Montana

I started a new save with Calgary after recent update. I decided to do little retooling and trade Johnny Gaudreau. These were the best offers i got and i tried to shop him multiple times between september and december. Like what the f.... And yeah, i can understand that those were 1st offers. I tried to negotiate with them and always when i asked 1st round draft pick answer was "were not willing to move high draft pick that cheaply". Gaudreau is a monster in this game. Look up his stats... he is elite. 100% in real life someone is willing to pay ATLEAST 1st round draft pick (Couple days ago in real life Calgary paid 1st rounder to get Toffoli) and honestly even probably a lot more. Im so frustrated. It has been so many problems and unrealistic sh*t happening this year that its unreal... Game has been basically unplayable whole time if you appreciate it goes even approximately realistic pathway.

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I did the same thing and had the same thought process as you here...to get rid of Gaudreau as part of a retool. I too was underwhelmed by the offers both from shopping the player and also from having him on the trade block, I actually did a couple of saves - one where I put him on around the new year/a month before the trade deadline and another where I had him on the block from the start of the season and both yielded similar results.

However, I ended up taking the Vilardi deal and that allowed me to flip Monaghan for a decent package. That got me thinking, why was it possible to flip less of a player for a better package?

The way I think the game looks at it is that Gaudreau is on an expiring deal and is an unrestricted FA at the end of it so will be expecting a large contract offer in order to re-sign with the team, so the receiving team must not only have the cap space available to cope with his contract this year but then also the cap space available to cope with whatever his extension demands are next year and for all the years thereafter depending on how long he signs for. With Monaghan he had two years of team control left, so he was a bit more of a reliably quantifiable asset.

At least this is what I have found from trying manual trades for many different players in different situations over the course of my current sim, players on expiring deals tend to have low value regardless of their production/ratings because yeah, there's no guarantee they will be anything more than a short term rental.

Also, Villardi worked out great so in hindsight that is actually a good deal as he can be re-signed for like $2m and easily put up over a point per game as a second line C.

EDIT - oh and I meant to say that I think the latest fix released that addressed the ability to put together a package of mediocre assets in exchange for one premier asset has affected the ability to trade for first round picks (as well as for good young players under team control as intended) because whenever I have included a first round pick in any deal regardless of what I am offering I get the message that states "We are not willing to move an asset of such value for such a measly package" or something along those lines, so yeah getting a first round pick for a rental isnt going to happen.

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by tomkmb

[The way I think the game looks at it] is that Gaudreau is on an expiring deal and is an unrestricted FA at the end of it so will be expecting a large contract offer in order to re-sign with the team, so the receiving team must not only have the cap space available to cope with his contract this year but then also the cap space available to cope with whatever his extension demands are next year and for all the years thereafter depending on how long he signs for. With Monaghan he had two years of team control left, so he was a bit more of a reliably quantifiable asset.

That's a really good observation. And I certainly hope you're right, that the game does look at it like this, in which case the AI coding (at least in this instance) would actually be reflecting real life cap considerations pretty accurately.

I know it can be frustrating to encounter unexpected behavior. Even more so it can impact your enjoyment of the game, yet I think it helpful to remind ourselves of the greater goal of striving toward a more realistic sim. Even when that sim presents new and perhaps unpopular challenges.

[AdequateRandomGaming]

Originally Posted by tomkmb

so yeah getting a first round pick for a rental isnt going to happen.

Which sadly is overly unrealistic. There are average players moved for 1st round draft picks every year at the deadline. I mean, Ben Chiarot is rumored to go for a 1st + this year. He's a 3rd pair d-man on a good team, maybe second pair on a team with a weaker D corp. But in this game, good luck getting any value for a player like that.


I understand trading AI is super difficult to get right, and you don't want to have the CPU just hand over their 1sts for scraps, but this is an area that I feel should be addressed to reflect real life a bit better. Players on expiring contracts are not worth much at the start of the year IRL, but some of them become very valuable around the trade deadline due to the shortness of their contract, and the remainder of the salary on the cap as well as injury situations to teams in the hunt for a long playoff run.


To be honest, I feel the issue may not be tied only to the trading aspect, but to the ability for the AI to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of their lineup and futures. That leads to team in "win now" mode to not be aggressive enough on the market to address perceived weaknesses and holding on picks instead, IMO.

[keroppichoppi]

Happy to see others have encountered a lot of the same problems I have but been too lazy to post about.

I always find after 5 years I'm constantly running into unsigned stars, stars traded for scraps, and insane goalie carousels.

[3z4rivyirn]

Seattle Kraken signing Tukka Rask for 7.5 million despite him being injured and unable to play seems pretty unrealistic.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by 3z4rivyirn

Seattle Kraken signing Tukka Rask for 7.5 million despite him being injured and unable to play seems pretty unrealistic.

Unless they need to get to the salary-cap floor. The Coyotes traded for Pavel Datsyuk when he wasn't going to play for them.

[Nickphillies]

Originally Posted by 3z4rivyirn

Seattle Kraken signing Tukka Rask for 7.5 million despite him being injured and unable to play seems pretty unrealistic.

Rask usually gets signed right as he's nearing his Return to play

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by jumpSeat

I think it'd be a major step forward if the AI considered geography and local rivalries, especially when it comes to blockbuster trades. IRL, there's barely any mathematical chance the Rangers would send Lafreniere to (what amounts to) their cross-town rivals.

I wonder if that tie in with the dynamic rivalry system that's currently in the game, though I think that's mostly based off of playoff games than it is geography or anything else.

[AdequateRandomGaming]

So, ran into yet another trade logic issue yesterday. This one has been more prevalent this year than in previous years, it's not something I had noticed being as bad in previous iterations of the game.

So, current day save. First year in the save. Trade deadline in 2022. Sabres trade Aaron Dell to the Flames for a 2nd rounder (what an overpay, but it's whatever). No other pieces in the trade. Calgary turns around, and immediately put Dell on Waivers (why trade for him then ? it's not a salary dump). But it gets better...the next day, Dell gets claimed...by the Sabres. The Sabres got a completely free 2nd rounder AND got to keep the player after all.

It's not the first time I've seen something similar (always seem to happen when goaltenders are involved). In an historical save, the Oilers (who had Fuhr and Ranford in net, both were 4 star players) traded 2 roster players to Pittsburgh for Don Beaupre (2 stars goaltender at the time) and a half star goaltender (I forget who). Edmonton then waives both goaltenders they had just acquired. There was no salary cap in that era, and the 2 players they traded were not on high salaries so a salary dump was not the cause.

I just think there's a weird way the AI evaluates goaltending in general, and it affects trading.