Question About the Way Importing Historical Free Agents Works

MorrisButtermaker · 04-21-2019, 04:01 PM

I have a question about the way importing historical free agents works in Out of the Park Baseball XX. I am trying to create a 1946 semipro team called the Brooklyn Bushwicks. Many of the team’s players were people who were semiprofessional baseball veterans who had minor and/or major league experience but had been out of the majors and minors for 3 to 5 years or so. It appears as if when I try to import them as historical free agents OOTP Baseball creates them as if they had been playing no baseball whatsoever 3 to 5 years. The Bushwicks were as good as the top AAA teams at the time. However, the ratings that OOTP Baseball gives the team’s players when they are imported as historical free agents does not reflect this fact. Can someone tell me if I am right in my assumption of how the simulation handles creating players like those I’m trying to import?

Spritze · 04-22-2019, 11:38 PM

age matters. they are all 5 years older.

MorrisButtermaker · 04-22-2019, 11:50 PM

Does the game also treat such players as if they are no longer in a physical conduction to play baseball?

Spritze · 04-23-2019, 02:07 AM

no - just age related deterioration

MorrisButtermaker · 04-23-2019, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

no - just age related deterioration

This is fascinating for what it says about the Bushwicks. They beat the Negro League teams more often then not. The OOTP Baseball simulation engine suggests they should not have been able to do this. What this means is that the Bushwicks were great at scouting talent and signing players who were much better than the minor league stats they accumulated as younger men would suggest.

NoOne · 04-24-2019, 06:07 PM

i'd trust historical results over ootp historical results

ootp won't prove anything for the most part... it's derivative of RL and will deviate in ways that aren't natural, inevitably, with historical stuff... not criticism, either.. it's a large undertaking that's continually improved over time (historical accuracy and how it works etc).

if you can quantify the deviations in a way that makes sense and large enough sample to be confident in it, you could provde that information to them to adjust in future work.

spitze is involved in this stuff beyond just helpful on forums? (not sure, don't want to misrepresent, so take as a grain of salt). so, it may already be on the 'brain' so to speak.

Spritze · 04-25-2019, 01:33 AM

salted grains is what I am when I do try to be helpful. experience is all I've got.

quantified deviations does sound interesting. I will bring that up to the wife.

MorrisButtermaker · 05-06-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

salted grains is what I am when I do try to be helpful. experience is all I've got.

quantified deviations does sound interesting. I will bring that up to the wife.

I think it is wonderful that the Negro Leagues were included in OOTP Baseball. Perhaps this inclusion means a case could be made for the Brooklyn Bushwicks to be included in OOTP Baseball as well since they played a lot of games against the Negro League teams, beat them more than they lost to them and were as good as the top AAA teams at the time. Maybe the Metropolitan Baseball Association, which was a league that included the Buchwicks as well as several other strong independent/semipro teams such as the Bay Parkways, the Barton's Nighthawks and the Springfield Greys could be created.The vast majority of Bushwicks players were people who had played in the minors and/or majors or would do so in their future. Sometimes major or minor league players played for the Bushwicks for a few games at a time between seasons or at times when they were temporarily without a minor or major league contract and/or team to play for. For some veterans the Bushwicks were their last chance to play baseball for pay before retiring. It was not uncommon for major and minor league teams to sign players straight off of and away from the Bushwicks and they would be a great place to obtain free agents for those playing OOTP Baseball. Researching the Bushwicks would actually be easier than researching the Negro League players. All of the Bushwicks games were covered in New York newspapers and box scores were printed for them. (See: https://fultonsearch.org/) The teams best season was 1946. They played 92 games and finished with a winning percentage that was just a fraction better than that ever achieved by a National or American League team. That year they played 41 games against Negro League teams and won 27 of them. One of the team's best hitters was Ed Boland. He is in the AAA free agent pool that the game creates itself and he gets an overall rating of 45. I think it should be much higher based upon how well he played on the Bushwicks. The team's best pitcher was Sam Nahem. He also gets a 45 from the game and also seems under rated. The only player who gets an overall rating higher than he seems to deserve is Tony Cuccinello. His 72 is too high. I assume this ratings deviations is due to the fact that OOTP Baseball does not take into account stats put up while playing on the Bushwicks. A last interesting fact about the Bushwicks is they played 95% of their games at home in Dexter Park. If MLB teams had played there it would be remembered as one of the most extreme pitcher's parks in baseball history. For an interesting article on the Bushwicks see WITH A BUNCH OF GARBAGEMEN IN THE LINEUP, THE BUSHWICKS CLEANED UP (https://www.si.com/vault/1981/06/15/...cks-cleaned-up) There has also been a book wirtten about them. It is Baseball's Peerless Semipros: The Brooklyn Bushwicks of Dexter Park by Thomas Barthel. I can provide more info on the team if you are interested.

MorrisButtermaker · 05-06-2019, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

no - just age related deterioration

How does it handle a player who played for an entire season on a semipro team like the Buchwicks and so has no minor or major league stats for that particular season that could be drawn on when OOTP Baseball imports the player into a game as a historical free agent for that season?

Spritze · 05-06-2019, 11:51 AM

currently OOTP does not include semi-pro teams in the historical database.

the standard game with all the weird current foreign and domestic leagues is getting close.

To include Bushwicks would require at minimum batting, pitching, fielding and player demographics for all the league teams in each year you wish to add. If you can supply this information in at least the Lahman format these teams could be added perhaps as soon as the next version.

The ManDak league of the 1950's is another semi-pro league made up of ex minor leaguers, major leaguers, negro league players as well as players who had real jobs.

Spritze · 05-06-2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorrisButtermaker

How does it handle a player who played for an entire season on a semipro team like the Buchwicks and so has no minor or major league stats for that particular season that could be drawn on when OOTP Baseball imports the player into a game as a historical free agent for that season?

players with no records are not imported. importation of a players full career only happens once. The gamer can choose to skip seasons according to the historical record or to allow the development engine to guess a players probable ratings for the missing years.

MorrisButtermaker · 05-06-2019, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

currently OOTP does not include semi-pro teams in the historical database.

the standard game with all the weird current foreign and domestic leagues is getting close.

To include Bushwicks would require at minimum batting, pitching, fielding and player demographics for all the league teams in each year you wish to add. If you can supply this information in at least the Lahman format these teams could be added perhaps as soon as the next version.

The ManDak league of the 1950's is another semi-pro league made up of ex minor leaguers, major leaguers, negro league players as well as players who had real jobs.

Can you please refer me to where I could find more information on the Lahman format?

I have to look into the ManDak league of the 1950's. It sounds very interesting. I think a lot of baseball fans today do not realize that American and National League players from earliest days of the game to 1950s were paid very little compared to modern players. I think many would assume that those how played in semipro leagues were not good enough to make it to the majors. I think they would be surprised to learn that many semipro players made more money working a 9-5 job and playing semipro baseball on nights and weekends than they would have made just playing in the majors. Some of them were good enough to play in the majors. They just did not want to take a financial hit to do so. The WWII period was particularly interesting because defense plant jobs paid so well.

Spritze · 05-06-2019, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorrisButtermaker

Can you please refer me to where I could find more information on the Lahman format?

download his mlb database at baseball1.com the format is not OOTP compatible but can be adjusted.

MorrisButtermaker · 05-06-2019, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

download his mlb database at baseball1.com the format is not OOTP compatible but can be adjusted.

I am going to look into this. Thanks.

04-21-2019, 04:01 PM	#1
MorrisButtermaker Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 54	Question About the Way Importing Historical Free Agents Works I have a question about the way importing historical free agents works in Out of the Park Baseball XX. I am trying to create a 1946 semipro team called the Brooklyn Bushwicks. Many of the team’s players were people who were semiprofessional baseball veterans who had minor and/or major league experience but had been out of the majors and minors for 3 to 5 years or so. It appears as if when I try to import them as historical free agents OOTP Baseball creates them as if they had been playing no baseball whatsoever 3 to 5 years. The Bushwicks were as good as the top AAA teams at the time. However, the ratings that OOTP Baseball gives the team’s players when they are imported as historical free agents does not reflect this fact. Can someone tell me if I am right in my assumption of how the simulation handles creating players like those I’m trying to import?

04-22-2019, 11:38 PM	#2
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	age matters. they are all 5 years older. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

04-22-2019, 11:50 PM	#3
MorrisButtermaker Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 54	Does the game also treat such players as if they are no longer in a physical conduction to play base Does the game also treat such players as if they are no longer in a physical conduction to play baseball?

04-23-2019, 02:07 AM	#4
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	no - just age related deterioration __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

04-25-2019, 01:33 AM	#7
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	salted grains is what I am when I do try to be helpful. experience is all I've got. quantified deviations does sound interesting. I will bring that up to the wife. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

04-24-2019, 06:07 PM	#6
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	i'd trust historical results over ootp historical results ootp won't prove anything for the most part... it's derivative of RL and will deviate in ways that aren't natural, inevitably, with historical stuff... not criticism, either.. it's a large undertaking that's continually improved over time (historical accuracy and how it works etc). if you can quantify the deviations in a way that makes sense and large enough sample to be confident in it, you could provde that information to them to adjust in future work. spitze is involved in this stuff beyond just helpful on forums? (not sure, don't want to misrepresent, so take as a grain of salt). so, it may already be on the 'brain' so to speak.

05-06-2019, 11:51 AM	#10
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	currently OOTP does not include semi-pro teams in the historical database. the standard game with all the weird current foreign and domestic leagues is getting close. To include Bushwicks would require at minimum batting, pitching, fielding and player demographics for all the league teams in each year you wish to add. If you can supply this information in at least the Lahman format these teams could be added perhaps as soon as the next version. The ManDak league of the 1950's is another semi-pro league made up of ex minor leaguers, major leaguers, negro league players as well as players who had real jobs. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!