Stopper/closer

[Padreman]

First of all and maybe somebody can help me with this I don't know the difference between a stopper and a closer maybe somebody can please explain that to me. But I was looking at some old threads and I came across some more people said that they prefer a stopper over a closer which to me again doesn't mean anything .

Maybe after somebody explains to me the difference I'll understand more why they feel that way. But It got me thinking I know you it might not work in a historical set up or modern setup. But why not in a fictional league you can have managers strategy dictate whether he prefers to use a closer or a stopper. Regardless of the era. His prefence can dictate that. But have some surprising results

[chriskelly]

I think the general idea is the closer pitches the 9th inning only, when his team is up by 1 - 3 runs. He's chasing saves. The stopper pitches late in the game in the most important situation; he may come in mid inning, runners on base, tie game, down 1, up 1, might pitch more than 1 inning. he's chasing wins.

[Padreman]

So it will be easy for a human manager to use this type of strategy in modern league but an AI manager not really. He will be programmed to use his middle reliever and his closer but if you had certain managers who were program to have that style of managing they very well can just bring in their stopper

[ohiodevil]

Andrew Miller = Stopper
Cody Allen = Closer

That is the best analogy I can come up with.

[chriskelly]

I guess the change is the AI would put his best reliever in the stopper role, and avoid using him in unimportant situations.

[dime]

Stopper was the norm in 70s, 80s for what today would be considered a two inning save

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[smiller]

In my fictional league, which is based on 1952 stats, the top reliever is always listed as the stopper. In fact, none of the teams have a closer, which may be due to the year the stats are based on and the fact that each team only has five relievers.

[Orcin]

The term "stopper" is somewhat obsolete in modern day baseball. In the early 1990's and before, closers were often referred to as "firemen" or "stoppers". It is essentially the same role. In those days, the stopper would come into the game with men on base more often than starting a clean inning as is the practice today.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by dime

Stopper was the norm in 70s, 80s for what today would be considered a two inning save

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Well the main issue will be according to what I'm reading I'll closer we'll come in towards the end of the game with his team in the lead and Pitch maybe one or two innings a stopper can come in in the sixth inning while losing pitch 2 or 3 endings and possibly pick up a relief win. So you can potentially have a top-notch closer who gets 40 saves the season get signed to A Team that prefers to use a stopper. He takes on that role now his saves will drop but his Innings ,strikeouts and relief wins will go up

[dime]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Well the main issue will be according to what I'm reading I'll closer we'll come in towards the end of the game with his team in the lead and Pitch maybe one or two innings a stopper can come in in the sixth inning while losing pitch 2 or 3 endings and possibly pick up a relief win. So you can potentially have a top-notch closer who gets 40 saves the season get signed to A Team that prefers to use a stopper. He takes on that role now his saves will drop but his Innings ,strikeouts and relief wins will go up

That's interesting, not sure how that role works in the game vis a vis "high leverage"?

I always thought stopper was for historical and not intended to be alongside the closer role in modern day baseball.

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[RchW]

The mythical stopper role or 3 inning closer/blown save/win or lose pitcher, didn't exist in a vacuum. They existed in a different pitching era typically 10-man staffs where the manager would let the starter go as long as he could then put another pitcher in to finish the game if he could. He might bridge with another pitcher if the starter gets rocked and/or to get to the 7th or 8th.

See Rollie Fingers and the Padres Staff in 1977. Three pitchers finished 121 of the 156 non-complete games that year. John McNamara used Fingers when he was ahead but not exclusively until he couldn't go and then used Spillner and then Tomlin. The latter two likely finished games they were losing more often.Too bad they didn't track blown saves. I bet there were a few.

Edit:

Also note that one of those three pitchers finished the game in 77 of 93 losses. Fingers led with 34.

[Padreman]

So in a modern setting if you have manager "A" he goes with the Berry modern close your role he comes in the ninth that guy gets 40 saves now that closer goes to team "B" in that same league this manager prefers to have that old school "stopper" guy. So on several locations the pitchers get rocked and leave in the 5th or even 6th he could come in pitch 2-3 innings and pick up a 3 inning save or stop the opposing team from a scoring he had me which allows his team to score and get a hint now he gets a win. At times he stops opposing team his time comes back but then they have the setup man come in and get the save in the final inning. So this "B" might get about 20-28 saves fewer than before but pitch more innings get more wins and possibly loses me the setup man might end up with a few extra saves himself from usual. Correct? This pitcher closer/stopper is still just a closer like Rollie Fingers was but only difference is that his stats might look a bit different?

[Painmantle]

If you want to know what a Stopper is, look at Mike Marshall's 1974 Stats when he set the record for Appearances in a season with 106 pitching 208 innings in relief (also still a MLB record) Compiling a record of 15-12 with 21 saves

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/play...rshmi01&y=1974

That about sums the role up

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

If you want to know what a Stopper is, look at Mike Marshall's 1974 Stats when he set the record for Appearances in a season with 106 pitching 208 innings in relief (also still a MLB record) Compiling a record of 15-12 with 21 saves

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/play...rshmi01&y=1974

That about sums the role up

Ok you just proved my point and I'm assuming his 21 saves was a team
Lead. There's no reason why this type of picture couldn't exist in a modern baseball setting in A fictional league. Having some managers have the tendencies to use this type of game plan rather than the modern closet so in a league you may come acrosss both. A one inning closer or a guy that comes in for 3 or 4.

[Padreman]

You can in theory have a 100/100/100 guy 100 wins, 100 saves, 100 holds

[NoOne]

if you moved the coach's strategy slider to 100% "situational" for closers, and you made his role closer / 8th+ or later, that would probably be close, but still not quite the same.

the role has some different dynamics in the game, i'd assume, since it has it's own designation in roles for other eras i assume...

so, a "stopper" can probably enter a game eariler and for different criteria, specifically no care for a "save", even though you changed all of the above in a modern environemnt, they still won't be used in quite the same way.

there's no way to keep the mlb strategy for extreme use of RP etc.. (if that is the one related, 2 possibilities that i can recall off the top of my hea related to RP/CL use) and have this role in that league.

also, without editing a coach, that combination of slider and opportunity to get a job makes it a slim chance of occuring, i'd guess...

if you play the games, obviously you can do as you wish regardles of role, but hte ai starts with a basic skeleton of strats, then various things like coach strat sliders skew that from the basic skeleton. the skeleton is defined by the Stats and AI drop down boxes on the left.

you could make use of releivers the same as another era, but you'll lose that closer role... make them have modern closers, and you lose the stopper role. no way around it.

[Padreman]

Does anyone know if you change the setting for use closers to rarely will that bring up stoppers? I know it in version 14 you could don't know if later version still works. To bad you can't have both 80% use closer 20% don't or what ever you want to set it as

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Padreman

You can in theory have a 100/100/100 guy 100 wins, 100 saves, 100 holds

Not in one year you couldn't.... unless MLB doubled their schedule.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Not in one year you couldn't.... unless MLB doubled their schedule.

I mean life time

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Padreman

I mean life time

Oh.

I think there are some 100 win and 100 save guys (career) IIRL(John Smoltz maybe?). Since "Hold" is not a MLB official statistic, I don't know about that one.