Sacrifice bunts

Red08 · 05-28-2016, 12:18 PM

I play a lot of my games and it seems like I fail on almost every sacrifice bunts attempt by my pitcher. It's basically to a point that I don't even bother trying anymore. And it's super frustrating that it happens even if there is no force out (e.g. player on second first base empty. I bunt, they throw it to third and my runner is cuthe down) it doesn't matter if I have BillyBilly Hamilton or Mo Vaughn on the basepaths, it's always the same. I'd there a way to fix it or is anyone else experiencing the same thing?

Déjà Bru · 05-28-2016, 12:38 PM

I have two observations, one definite and one speculative.

The definite observation, more of a suggestion, is that you should be checking the Sacrifice Bunt ratings of the pitchers in question. Are you doing that? The one that I picked at random and show below is barely adequate in this capability.

The speculative observation is this: To sacrifice bunt, one needs to make contact, correct? If that is so, and the Contact rating also comes into consideration as to whether a sacrifice bunt play will be successful, then this particular pitcher should not be called upon to try.

That's what I look at when deciding whether to have a pitcher bunt. Sometimes it pays to have a pinch hitter come up to do the job. Often a light-hitting bench guy will have an excellent Sacrifice Bunt rating and do the job properly.

MrBojangles · 05-28-2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I have two observations, one definite and one speculative.

The definite observation, more of a suggestion, is that you should be checking the Sacrifice Bunt ratings of the pitchers in question. Are you doing that? The one that I picked at random and show below is barely adequate in this capability.

The speculative observation is this: To sacrifice bunt, one needs to make contact, correct? If that is so, and the Contact rating also comes into consideration as to whether a sacrifice bunt play will be successful, then this particular pitcher should not be called upon to try.

That's what I look at when deciding whether to have a pitcher bunt. Sometimes it pays to have a pinch hitter come up to do the job. Often a light-hitting bench guy will have an excellent Sacrifice Bunt rating and do the job properly.

That is a very informative and helpful response to the question asked. Thank you.

NoOne · 05-28-2016, 03:01 PM

i don't think contact matters for bunts.. there is a specific rating for it. also in real life good bunters don't have to be good hitters, too... it's a different skill almost completely.

at the end ofthe season look at # of SH and SF. compare to baseball reference of similar years - if historical play. if you notice a HUGE descrepancy below what baseball-reference is showing, that might *possibly* explain why you are failing so often.

possibly: becaue it may just be controlling attempts as opposed to attempts and likelihood of success... it may not matter at all, lol.

also, check the settings for bunting on the other side of that settings page (left side of Stats & AI - set of dropdown boxes for various things like bunting, starting pitcher stamina etc). the frequency it's set at may have some other ramifications, too.

SteveP · 05-29-2016, 02:32 PM

I did a test some time ago and found that SH plays led to runner outs or DPs more often than IRL. As a result, I modified the setting for Bunting Success in the engine.cfg file to 170. I have done that in every version of the game since then. I also modified the Bunt for Hit to 150 for similar reasons. These settings seemed to produce more accurate results.

Note: my tests were done with historical leagues. However, I did look at real life results for more recent years as a check. AFAIK, no one else has tested this, so no confirmation of my results.

Déjà Bru · 05-29-2016, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

I did a test some time ago and found that SH plays led to runner outs or DPs more often than IRL. As a result, I modified the setting for Bunting Success in the engine.cfg file to 170. I have done that in every version of the game since then. I also modified the Bunt for Hit to 150 for similar reasons. These settings seemed to produce more accurate results.

Note: my tests were done with historical leagues. However, I did look at real life results for more recent years as a check. AFAIK, no one else has tested this, so no confirmation of my results.

Yes, you could get into some seriously deep stuff in this regard. Such as the thought of how what you do interacts or conflicts with this setting, which presumably varies by era:

SteveP · 05-30-2016, 01:18 PM

No, not the LTM for sac bunts. Modify the config file. That impact is very simple.

Déjà Bru · 05-30-2016, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

No, not the LTM for sac bunts. Modify the config file. That impact is very simple.

Yes, but what I am speculating about is that the config file is for all simulations, correct? How does one anticipate or measure a tweak in that file when there are also periodic adjustments going on by historical era in the modifier that I highlighted?

SteveP · 05-31-2016, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Yes, but what I am speculating about is that the config file is for all simulations, correct? How does one anticipate or measure a tweak in that file when there are also periodic adjustments going on by historical era in the modifier that I highlighted?

I can't give you an authoritative answer. AFAIK, the LTM is derived from other stats, not directly from a figure in the DB. To what extent it guides the probability of an SH attempt vs the probability of the attempt being successful, I don't know. But if it is derived, it seems possible to me that the default setting results in a success rate that is too low. If so, this could be considered a global impact.

There are some other small anomalies like this. For example, a player with a high rating for HBP will get hit a low more often than IRL. Which means that players with a low rating for HBP are pretty safe up there at the plate.

Déjà Bru · 05-31-2016, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

I can't give you an authoritative answer. AFAIK, the LTM is derived from other stats, not directly from a figure in the DB. To what extent it guides the probability of an SH attempt vs the probability of the attempt being successful, I don't know. But if it is derived, it seems possible to me that the default setting results in a success rate that is too low. If so, this could be considered a global impact.

There are some other small anomalies like this. For example, a player with a high rating for HBP will get hit a low more often than IRL. Which means that players with a low rating for HBP are pretty safe up there at the plate.

Thanks on behalf of others. As for myself, better men than I may dare to touch settings like these!

But if they do, they would be well advised to back up their current games and test extensively, perhaps on "laboratory" leagues, before applying them to ones that they care about.

Questdog · 05-31-2016, 05:14 PM

I tested the bunt success rate in OOTP16 with default settings and found that a good bunt happened about 75% of the time in games I played out, which is about what it should be.

Tjpfeif72 · 09-03-2016, 12:36 AM

Runner on 1st base, batter does not show bunt but waits until pitch is in motion delays the bunt.... batter is still thrown out, close play but batter is still out. Is that still considered a SAC bunt or bunt for hit? Does the batter have to square up the bunt first to be considered a SAC?

Questdog · 09-03-2016, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjpfeif72

Runner on 1st base, batter does not show bunt but waits until pitch is in motion delays the bunt.... batter is still thrown out, close play but batter is still out. Is that still considered a SAC bunt or bunt for hit? Does the batter have to square up the bunt first to be considered a SAC?

In OOTP, it will always be a SH. In real life, most of the time. The only time it will not be, is if it is obvious that a sacrifice bunt was not desired; i.e. the batting team down by 4 runs in the bottom of the 9th.

NoOne · 09-04-2016, 10:52 PM

are they 2 different options on the screen? if so, then ootp knows intent and will score it as such.

i'm certain it adheres to less than 2 outs since it's a specific part of the rule, but does it hve a run differential check? maybe, maybe not. thankfully, in the game we are not reliant on an umpire's discretion, even if it does count a sacrifice in a few situations that are undeserving.

edit: oops we had a june - sep jump here.

TheMaus2 · 09-08-2016, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tjpfeif72

Runner on 1st base, batter does not show bunt but waits until pitch is in motion delays the bunt.... batter is still thrown out, close play but batter is still out. Is that still considered a SAC bunt or bunt for hit? Does the batter have to square up the bunt first to be considered a SAC?

Depends if the runner advances. SACs are only scored if the runner advances.

05-28-2016, 12:18 PM	#1
Red08 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 88	Sacrifice bunts I play a lot of my games and it seems like I fail on almost every sacrifice bunts attempt by my pitcher. It's basically to a point that I don't even bother trying anymore. And it's super frustrating that it happens even if there is no force out (e.g. player on second first base empty. I bunt, they throw it to third and my runner is cuthe down) it doesn't matter if I have BillyBilly Hamilton or Mo Vaughn on the basepaths, it's always the same. I'd there a way to fix it or is anyone else experiencing the same thing?

05-28-2016, 12:38 PM	#2
Déjà Bru Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Long Island Posts: 11,738	I have two observations, one definite and one speculative. The definite observation, more of a suggestion, is that you should be checking the Sacrifice Bunt ratings of the pitchers in question. Are you doing that? The one that I picked at random and show below is barely adequate in this capability. The speculative observation is this: To sacrifice bunt, one needs to make contact, correct? If that is so, and the Contact rating also comes into consideration as to whether a sacrifice bunt play will be successful, then this particular pitcher should not be called upon to try. That's what I look at when deciding whether to have a pitcher bunt. Sometimes it pays to have a pinch hitter come up to do the job. Often a light-hitting bench guy will have an excellent Sacrifice Bunt rating and do the job properly. Attached Images __________________ - Bru

05-28-2016, 03:01 PM	#4
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	i don't think contact matters for bunts.. there is a specific rating for it. also in real life good bunters don't have to be good hitters, too... it's a different skill almost completely. at the end ofthe season look at # of SH and SF. compare to baseball reference of similar years - if historical play. if you notice a HUGE descrepancy below what baseball-reference is showing, that might possibly explain why you are failing so often. possibly: becaue it may just be controlling attempts as opposed to attempts and likelihood of success... it may not matter at all, lol. also, check the settings for bunting on the other side of that settings page (left side of Stats & AI - set of dropdown boxes for various things like bunting, starting pitcher stamina etc). the frequency it's set at may have some other ramifications, too. Last edited by NoOne; 05-28-2016 at 03:03 PM.

09-03-2016, 12:36 AM	#12
Tjpfeif72 Bat Boy Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 1	Sac bunt or bunt for hit Runner on 1st base, batter does not show bunt but waits until pitch is in motion delays the bunt.... batter is still thrown out, close play but batter is still out. Is that still considered a SAC bunt or bunt for hit? Does the batter have to square up the bunt first to be considered a SAC?

05-29-2016, 02:32 PM	#5
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	I did a test some time ago and found that SH plays led to runner outs or DPs more often than IRL. As a result, I modified the setting for Bunting Success in the engine.cfg file to 170. I have done that in every version of the game since then. I also modified the Bunt for Hit to 150 for similar reasons. These settings seemed to produce more accurate results. Note: my tests were done with historical leagues. However, I did look at real life results for more recent years as a check. AFAIK, no one else has tested this, so no confirmation of my results.

05-30-2016, 01:18 PM	#7
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	No, not the LTM for sac bunts. Modify the config file. That impact is very simple.

05-31-2016, 05:14 PM	#11
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I tested the bunt success rate in OOTP16 with default settings and found that a good bunt happened about 75% of the time in games I played out, which is about what it should be.

09-04-2016, 10:52 PM	#14
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	are they 2 different options on the screen? if so, then ootp knows intent and will score it as such. i'm certain it adheres to less than 2 outs since it's a specific part of the rule, but does it hve a run differential check? maybe, maybe not. thankfully, in the game we are not reliant on an umpire's discretion, even if it does count a sacrifice in a few situations that are undeserving. edit: oops we had a june - sep jump here.