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Old 06-11-2015, 01:50 AM   #1
VarlosZ
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Am I nuts, or do substitutions not work great?

This isn't specific to OOTP 16; as far as I can tell this problem has been around forever. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding the situation.


The issue is that is that assigning subs for each position is too inflexible. Specifically, you can't get a player who starts at one position to be the backup at another.

Take the Mets: they have Daniel Murphy at 2B, Wilmer Flores at SS, and Ruben Tejada on the bench as a utility infielder. I'd like to be able to set it up so that, if Murphy is injured or tired, then the poor-fielding Flores would move off of SS and over to 2B, and then Tejada takes over for Flores at SS. There are tons of scenarios in which this kind of plan would be desirable, and of course it happens in real life all the time.

But (and, again, correct me if I'm wrong), OOTP seems incapable of handling this setup. Is there a workaround other than just manually making the change as players drop in and out of the lineup?

For the record, this doesn't seem like a terribly difficult fix, in theory. Just program it so that a player's assigned responsibility as a backup supersedes his responsibility as a starter. That way, in my scenario above, when Murphy goes down Flores would automatically be grabbed to play 2B, leaving SS open for Tejada.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:54 AM   #2
RchW
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Actually it doesn't especially this season. Flores is clearly the SS and doesn't play other positions this season. This is very much the reality in MLB. Starting players rarely play other positions unless there is some sort of roster crunch due to injury. Tejada has been supplanted at SS and is now a utility/backup player splitting time at 2B, 3B, SS. Even that is unusual. Few backups start significant games at more than one position. I see that Wright and Murphy are injured so Tejada does more than most backups. Real life managers don't mess with infield starters much.

A far bigger problem is OOTP plays too many starters at multiple positions, something that doesn't happen IRL.

Here is a screenshot showing backup IF use IRL. Note that Flores was one of only 5 players who started significant numbers of games at 2B and SS last year. That's because he was a backup. This year is different.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:33 PM   #3
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Actually it doesn't especially this season. Flores is clearly the SS and doesn't play other positions this season. This is very much the reality in MLB. Starting players rarely play other positions unless there is some sort of roster crunch due to injury. Tejada has been supplanted at SS and is now a utility/backup player splitting time at 2B, 3B, SS. Even that is unusual. Few backups start significant games at more than one position. I see that Wright and Murphy are injured so Tejada does more than most backups. Real life managers don't mess with infield starters much.

A far bigger problem is OOTP plays too many starters at multiple positions, something that doesn't happen IRL.
Not sure I understand your post. I thought the OP was asking for a work around for assigning subs for multiple positions that OOTP has already rated them as being capable of playing.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by VarlosZ View Post

But (and, again, correct me if I'm wrong), OOTP seems incapable of handling this setup.
Real-life Mets manager Terry Collins is ALSO incapable of handling that setup.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:01 PM   #5
TLB1975
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Originally Posted by VarlosZ View Post
For the record, this doesn't seem like a terribly difficult fix, in theory. Just program it so that a player's assigned responsibility as a backup supersedes his responsibility as a starter. That way, in my scenario above, when Murphy goes down Flores would automatically be grabbed to play 2B, leaving SS open for Tejada.
Two things in regard to what your asking. One, I'm not so sure how easy it is, and two I can't imagine a scenario where I would want a players assigned responsibilities as a backup to automatically superseded his responsibilities as a starter as you've suggested.

To me, I would want to manually make this adjustment when an injury occurs. As an example, playing as the Pirates, if there was an injury in my OF, I may want to move Josh Harrison from 3B to a starting spot in the OF, but only in certain scenarios (Kang, and Mercer are healthy and performing reasonably, my lineup doesn't become to righty imbalanced, who I'm calling up from AAA to replace the injured OF, etc..)

I'm guessing from your want that you are simming significant chunks at a time vs playing or simming one game?
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:06 PM   #6
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Two things in regard to what your asking. One, I'm not so sure how easy it is, and two I can't imagine a scenario where I would want a players assigned responsibilities as a backup to automatically superseded his responsibilities as a starter as you've suggested.

To me, I would want to manually make this adjustment when an injury occurs. As an example, playing as the Pirates, if there was an injury in my OF, I may want to move Josh Harrison from 3B to a starting spot in the OF, but only in certain scenarios (Kang, and Mercer are healthy and performing reasonably, my lineup doesn't become to righty imbalanced, who I'm calling up from AAA to replace the injured OF, etc..)

I'm guessing from your want that you are simming significant chunks at a time vs playing or simming one game?
I like what the OP is asking for. This is great for guys who 1. play in online leagues or 2. prefer to sim days/weeks without interruption. It seems very reasonable to me, for example, that my backup CF'er plays LF everyday, but if my CF needs a day off, I don't have some bozo playing CF, I'll have my regular LF'er out there, and then a backup assigned to LF.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:14 PM   #7
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I like what the OP is asking for. This is great for guys who 1. play in online leagues or 2. prefer to sim days/weeks without interruption. It seems very reasonable to me, for example, that my backup CF'er plays LF everyday, but if my CF needs a day off, I don't have some bozo playing CF, I'll have my regular LF'er out there, and then a backup assigned to LF.
I think what your saying makes sense however I'm guessing that not every position replacement is cut and dry. Who I may want filling in for a rest day might be quite different than who I would want filling in more permanently in case of an injury.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:04 PM   #8
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Not sure I understand your post. I thought the OP was asking for a work around for assigning subs for multiple positions that OOTP has already rated them as being capable of playing.
No he wanted to move a starting SS to 2B when the starting 2B is tired and/or injured. OOTP does this all the time on AI teams, and it is not realistic. A cascade effect occurs once the first position switch occurs and one ends up with multiple starters playing out of position.

There is a significant group on the forum who would like OOTP to reflect real life player usage more closely. A position carousel does not do this.

Edit this applies to the infield specifically SS and 2B and slightly less at 3B. OF should be less strict.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:31 PM   #9
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I think what your saying makes sense however I'm guessing that not every position replacement is cut and dry. Who I may want filling in for a rest day might be quite different than who I would want filling in more permanently in case of an injury.
I suppose, but in the case of a long-term injury replacement you're presumably making the change manually regardless, since you have to call up a minor leaguer, etc. It's only an issue for very brief injuries or days off due to fatigue, where many players would prefer for the game to handle it automatically.

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No he wanted to move a starting SS to 2B when the starting 2B is tired and/or injured. OOTP does this all the time on AI teams, and it is not realistic. A cascade effect occurs once the first position switch occurs and one ends up with multiple starters playing out of position.

There is a significant group on the forum who would like OOTP to reflect real life player usage more closely. A position carousel does not do this.
One, it's only a cascade effect if you set it up that way, and it's rare that someone would actually want to do that. Two -- and more fundamentally -- it would only be an option, of course. You don't think it's realistic for a team's depth chart to work in the way I described in the OP? That's fine, don't set up your depth chart that way. But I have seen it happen in real life, and I don't see why my depth chart should be hobbled.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:14 PM   #10
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One, it's only a cascade effect if you set it up that way, and it's rare that someone would actually want to do that. Two -- and more fundamentally -- it would only be an option, of course. You don't think it's realistic for a team's depth chart to work in the way I described in the OP? That's fine, don't set up your depth chart that way. But I have seen it happen in real life, and I don't see why my depth chart should be hobbled.
Touchy today? Please read my posts. I was talking AI position logic; not my team or depth chart. The cascade happens all the time, no matter who or what is in control and is different based on platoon lineups, injuries, trades, promotion and demotions.

The AI is actually predisposed (too much) to do what you want, so it surprised me that it isn't happening naturally to you. Maybe your depth charts need some adjustment.

I'd like an adjustment, option if you wish, to have the AI be much more realistic and not move starting middle infielders around. If I didn't work hard to get around this flaw, my depth chart would be hobbled. Now you want to make it worse.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:51 PM   #11
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I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, it'd be nice to have the AI have the ability to do this - where, say, your backup CF plays every 3rd day, and on that day, your starting CF shifts over to LF. The AI currently doesn't have the capacity to set its lineups this way - if a player is set as a starter, he doesn't appear anywhere else on the depth chart.

HOWEVER, I also understand that the AI as it currently stands would not be able to handle this function very well. It already goes a little nuts when it comes to substitutions and has players playing way too many positions. So while I would like to see this happen, I would prefer the AI actually be able to handle it first.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:30 PM   #12
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I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, it'd be nice to have the AI have the ability to do this - where, say, your backup CF plays every 3rd day, and on that day, your starting CF shifts over to LF. The AI currently doesn't have the capacity to set its lineups this way - if a player is set as a starter, he doesn't appear anywhere else on the depth chart.

HOWEVER, I also understand that the AI as it currently stands would not be able to handle this function very well. It already goes a little nuts when it comes to substitutions and has players playing way too many positions. So while I would like to see this happen, I would prefer the AI actually be able to handle it first.
If one uses 7-day lineups the issue of moving starters can be solved easily. I'd love to see a 30-day lineup tied into custom lineups. Of course this wouldn't solve the AI issue.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:52 PM   #13
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If you put the player in the starting spot first, you can put him in a utility spot.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:59 AM   #14
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If you put the player in the starting spot first, you can put him in a utility spot.
Well, if you're controlling the lineups, you can do whatever you want (same thing can be said for 7-day lineups). I figured we were talking about getting AI-controlled teams (or AI managers in GM Mode) to do it themselves.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:51 AM   #15
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Well, if you're controlling the lineups, you can do whatever you want (same thing can be said for 7-day lineups). I figured we were talking about getting AI-controlled teams (or AI managers in GM Mode) to do it themselves.
I guess a whole lot of people play 1 team leagues.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:43 AM   #16
VarlosZ
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Touchy today?
You're right, my last post read as way harsher than I intended it to.

Quote:
I was talking AI position logic; not my team or depth chart. The cascade happens all the time, no matter who or what is in control and is different based on platoon lineups, injuries, trades, promotion and demotions.

The AI is actually predisposed (too much) to do what you want, so it surprised me that it isn't happening naturally to you. Maybe your depth charts need some adjustment.
Yeah, I've never really noticed it., probably because I'm simming weeks at at a time but also dealing with any meaningful injuries manually, so my depth chart is never really out of whack.

Quote:
I'd like an adjustment, option if you wish, to have the AI be much more realistic and not move starting middle infielders around. If I didn't work hard to get around this flaw, my depth chart would be hobbled. Now you want to make it worse.
Well that'd be fine with me, though it sounds like more of an AI limitation than an intentional plan as it stands now. It's kinda the worst of both worlds, actually: the AI moves players off of positions with an unrealistic frequency, but I can't set my depth chart to do it in a purposeful way.


Can anyone think of a problem with my proposed solution of having a player's backup responsibilities supersede his starter responsibilities (at least for human-controlled teams)?
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:49 AM   #17
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If you put the player in the starting spot first, you can put him in a utility spot.
You can get him to to appear in both slots, but I'm pretty sure it still doesn't work. If your 2B starter is exhausted and the backup at the position is your starter at SS, the AI acts as if you have no backup assigned at 2B and the guy will keep playing. (I think.)
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:01 AM   #18
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I think this issue could be solved with OOTP expanding the custom lineup options.

Personally, I'd love if instead of depth chart or 7 day lineups if i could assign usage of each custom lineup instead. This also could solve for a few players that start in multiple spots.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:11 PM   #19
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Not sure if this is related or a big part of the problem. See screenshots below of my starting SS. He is rated very high at both 2B & SS. For the last 3 years he has started 370 games at SS and 5 at 2B yet his fielding ratings for both positions have stayed the same. Why would his 2B rating not decline, being he hasn't really played that position in over 3 years?
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:57 PM   #20
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I'm guessing because SS is a harder position to play than 2B is. If he's rated that high at SS, than he should be able to play 2B at a high rate.
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