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Old 01-24-2014, 07:30 PM   #1
jarmenia
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Can a clean player break the HR record and if so, will they be believed to be clean?

After reading through the various steroid threads I got to wondering if someone were to break the single season and/or all time home run records, would anyone believe they are clean?

I don't see how anyone that breaks any of the steroid aided records will ever be believed to be clean. What would a player have to do to prove to you that they were clean while breaking the records? This in my mind makes the record book pretty much useless. What does everyone else think?
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Old 01-24-2014, 07:48 PM   #2
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I don't think so. I think Arod was the last clean hope, but he blew that twice. The first time when he admitted using PED's, and the second time when he showed the flaws in the testing process.

This is just me since I followed baseball the numbers 60 and 61, and 714 and 755 meant something. You heard so much about those numbers for so many years they became mythical. The single season mark was broken several times in a short period of time that I couldn't even tell you what the new mark is without looking, or total number of home runs Bonds hit.

Maybe that'll change over time, but I think anybody getting close would be under suspicion - like Chris Davis was last year.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:32 PM   #3
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Were the original records 60 & 61 set by clean players? Can anyone prove this?
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:32 PM   #4
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I could see one of the Rockies doing it some day, sure, and naysayers would point to Coors Field not steroids.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:44 PM   #5
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This is just me since I followed baseball the numbers 60 and 61, and 714 and 755 meant something.
Well, there's always context to these numbers. Ruth's 714, for example. He lost home runs because of the rules of the time: balls which left the field of play fair but which landed foul were declared foul balls, not home runs. Bill Jenkinson (author of The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs) estimates that had the modern rules been applied to Ruth, he would have had an additional 75 home runs, bringing his career total to 789.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:45 AM   #6
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Were the original records 60 & 61 set by clean players? Can anyone prove this?
I'm pretty sure Ruth pumped up with beer and hot dogs.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:46 AM   #7
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I could see one of the Rockies doing it some day, sure, and naysayers would point to Coors Field not steroids.
There are perhaps a half a dozen ballparks where the record might be broken. In addition I think it will be important for a player to have some lineup protection. My guess is it will be easier to break the single season record than the career record.

There is no doubt that players are getting bigger and stronger with each new generation. To my knowledge Josh Hamilton never juiced, or if he did it was well before his time with the Rangers, the same with Pujols and they both have/had the power to hit well over 70.

If there is a number that may be unattainable it could be 300 wins. In fact I am almost certain a closer will reach 500 saves before a starter gets to 300 wins.
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:17 AM   #8
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If there is a number that may be unattainable it could be 300 wins. In fact I am almost certain a closer will reach 500 saves before a starter gets to 300 wins.
Cy Young had 749 complete games. That one's safe.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:15 AM   #9
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I'm pretty sure Ruth pumped up with beer and hot dogs.
Aside from the fact he hit all of those homeruns against pitching that had not developed 90% of the pitches they used today against a talent pool that was about 10% of that of today (both big * for me) he also experimented with PED's.

But, I love the little hot dog and beer line. Never heard that one before.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:58 AM   #10
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Were the original records 60 & 61 set by clean players? Can anyone prove this?
The 60 was hit in 1927 I believe. Maybe the alcohol helped him? I know the higher mound didn't.

Maris hit 61 in the early 60s so I don't know what they had at that time. But whatever it was, it didn't have the same affect on the body as Maris didn't look all that pumped up.
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:40 AM   #11
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Aside from the fact he hit all of those homeruns against pitching that had not developed 90% of the pitches they used today against a talent pool that was about 10% of that of today (both big * for me) he also experimented with PED's.
Here, you seem to be taking my post very seriously indeed. So, seriously, I concede all your points.

So much is different between now and 1927. Besides what you rightly noted, there were only 8 teams in each league, so a given pitcher and hitter saw each other A LOT. There were no night games. Baseballs were hardly ever thrown out of games. Travel conditions were hugely different. Training and conditioning were worlds apart.

This is why records (heresy alert) are just no longer that big a deal to me. Ruth hit 60 homers in a season and McGwire hit, what, 150? I dunno, I don't even remember. Point is, Ruth is undiminished in my estimation. And I'm not knocking McGwire either; it's just apples and oranges.

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But, I love the little hot dog and beer line. Never heard that one before.
Here, you're taking what I posted as a stale joke, and you're on the money again. Alas, I'm considerably over the hill as a humorist (and in everything else, for that matter), so I'm afraid it won't get any better, sorry. But I assume you're not depending on me for all your humor needs.

In sum, it's all good.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:37 PM   #12
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... against a talent pool that was about 10% of that of today ...
You're going to have to provide some support for that in order for me to believe it as it was stated.
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:32 PM   #13
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You're going to have to provide some support for that in order for me to believe it as it was stated.
People tend to forget ballpark fences were further back in many stadiums and the mound was higher.
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:46 PM   #14
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Cy Young had 749 complete games. That one's safe.
No one is touching Big Train's 110 shutouts, either. CC Sabathia has 12.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:07 AM   #15
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People tend to forget ballpark fences were further back in many stadiums and the mound was higher.
Yeah, that short porch in Yankee stadium was such a bear to put the ball over. 285 foot in Left, 295 foot in Right. There are high school fields bigger than that.

Then he played in Comiskey, Fenway, Tiger Stadium.

Babe Ruth is like that fish you caught when no one was with you. The legend just grows a little each year.

He would be Cecil Fielder if he played today.
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Old 01-26-2014, 02:01 AM   #16
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Yeah, that short porch in Yankee stadium was such a bear to put the ball over. 285 foot in Left, 295 foot in Right. There are high school fields bigger than that.

Then he played in Comiskey, Fenway, Tiger Stadium.

Babe Ruth is like that fish you caught when no one was with you. The legend just grows a little each year.

He would be Cecil Fielder if he played today.
Yankee Stadium was a cheap shot if you could hit it right down the lines. Otherwise, in Ruth's day, it was tough to get a ball out of: as built, 460 to left-center, 429 to right-center, 490 straight away (according to what I've read). No place in Comiskey was shorter than 363; it was a notorious pitchers' park.

Tigers Stadium (Briggs Stadium when I was a kid) and Fenway were really good parks to hit in.

Babe Ruth was a much better pitcher than Cecil Fielder.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:03 AM   #17
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He would be Cecil Fielder if he played today.
Perhaps this is true but it cant be proved and maybe Ruth would have taken advantage of todays technology to improve his game. Who knows?

Comparing one of the best hitters in baseball history to Cecil Fielder is just wrong. We have plenty of numbers to compare era's now and Ruth still comes out as one of the 3 best of all time.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:27 AM   #18
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Yeah, that short porch in Yankee stadium was such a bear to put the ball over. 285 foot in Left, 295 foot in Right. There are high school fields bigger than that.
First, wireman noted that the short dimensions in Ruth's time were only directly down the lines; once you got away from those the park was quite spacious. According to Green Cathedrals by Philip J. Lowry, the dimensions were:

Left Field: 255, 280.58 (1924); 301 (1928)
Left Field: left side of bullpen gate in short left field 395, 402 (1928); right side of bullpen gate 415 (1937)
Left Center: 474, 461 (1924); 451 (1937)
Deepest Left Center (left of dead center): 500, 490 (1924), 461 (1937)
Center Field left side of screen: 466 (1937)
Center Field: 487, 470 (1924), 449 (1937)
Left of Right Center: 423, 417 (1924), 407 (1937)
Right Center: 423, 417 (1924), 407 (1937)
Right Field: left side of bullpen gate 367 (1937); right side of bullpen gate 344 (1937)
Right Field: 255, 295 (1924), 296 (1930)

You can see overhead diagrams of the original Yankee Stadium at Clem's Baseball. Take a look at the park's shape in 1923 and 1928.

Then there's this from the preface of Green Cathedrals:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Cathedrals by Phil Lowry

Second, ballpark geometry really matters when you analyze the game. Before 1931, fly balls down the foul lines were ruled fair or foul by where they landed rather than where they left the field of play. Bill Jenkinson's excellent forthcoming book "The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs" examines in detail the landing spots for every long ball hit by Babe Ruth, projecting that had he played in ballparks with 2006 dimensions, he would have had 104 homers in 1921 rather than just 59. Jenkinson also projects that had fly balls been judged to be homers based on where they left the playing field rather than where they landed, Ruth would have had 75 additional homers over his career, so Henry Aaron would have been chasing a Ruthian record of 789 rather than 714. Remember, Yankee Stadium's right field stands were simply 70 rows of wooden bleachers in Ruth's time, before the 1936-38 reconstruction of the upper decks, so when one of his long curving fly balls passed the foul pole way fair, it had another hundred feet or so of wide open bleachers in which to curve foul.

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Old 01-26-2014, 07:30 AM   #19
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Beside, Ruth hit more HR [I]away[I]from home (in less game, too)
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:41 AM   #20
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Beside, Ruth hit more HR [I]away[I]from home (in less game, too)
breakdown for Ruth vs Bonds
Babe Ruth Career Home Runs - Baseball-Reference.com

Barry Bonds Career Home Runs - Baseball-Reference.com
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