Your 2014 Hall Of Fame Ballot

[rpriske]

So what Sheff was really guilty of was shooting his mouth off (and being a lousy infielder).

Neither of those things are PROs for his Hall of Fame chances, but neither are they really CONs (well... since he didn't stay in the infield....)

[The Game]

Dan Le Baturd was ripped on his vote by the BWAA for giving his vote to Deadspin.
I didnt hate their ballot but I am against known or accused steroid users like Bonds going into the HOF. Put Rose & Shoeless Joe in 1st then i will soften my stance on a few of these cheaters.
And for those of you who bring up Pud Galvin, Ruth, Mays, etc. How well known was the story of them being on horse elixir or Greenies at the time of their induction?

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by The Game

Dan Le Baturd was ripped on his vote by the BWAA for giving his vote to Deadspin.
I didnt hate their ballot but I am against known or accused steroid users like Bonds going into the HOF. Put Rose & Shoeless Joe in 1st then i will soften my stance on a few of these cheaters.
And for those of you who bring up Pud Galvin, Ruth, Mays, etc. How well known was the story of them being on horse elixir or Greenies at the time of their induction?

I don't care that they took the vote away from Le Batard, I think he even expected it. I'd just like the BBWAA to be consistent with their "abuse of privilege". They should continue to strip voting rights for blank ballots, voting for Armando Benitez, Jacque Jones, Eric Gagne, etc. Next they can go after anybody who voted who didn't think Maddux belonged in the Hall.

So let me ask a question - since Greenies are now illegal in baseball should they kick out every player who has admitted taking them before they were illegal? And if not then why the double standard with steroids before they were illegal? Both were illegal, and not banned from baseball at the time.

As for were greenies known at the time? Who knows. If they were handed out like candy in clubhouses how could it not be known? I believe during the Pittsburgh drug trials in 1985 Stargell was tied to greenies. He was elected in 1988.

[rpriske]

Not just that, but the idea that people who bet on games are doing something LESS wrong than people on steroids is EXTREMELY ridiculous.

You think that trying to lose is less harmful than trying to win?

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Not just that, but the idea that people who bet on games are doing something LESS wrong than people on steroids is EXTREMELY ridiculous.

You think that trying to lose is less harmful than trying to win?

I was under the impression that Pete Rose always bet on his team to win (when he bet on his team in the first place).

Shoeless Joe...different story, though his stats in that World Series are actually quite impressive.

[John Madden]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

I was under the impression that Pete Rose always bet on his team to win (when he bet on his team in the first place).

Shoeless Joe...different story, though his stats in that World Series are actually quite impressive.

Those stats are exactly why many people (myself included) believe Shoeless Joe didn't follow through with his promise to throw the series at all, and deserves induction.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

So let me ask a question - since Greenies are now illegal in baseball should they kick out every player who has admitted taking them before they were illegal? And if not then why the double standard with steroids before they were illegal? Both were illegal, and not banned from baseball at the time.

As for were greenies known at the time? Who knows. If they were handed out like candy in clubhouses how could it not be known? I believe during the Pittsburgh drug trials in 1985 Stargell was tied to greenies. He was elected in 1988.

How many players are already in the HOF that took steroids that we dont know about? Grandfather rules apply. Someone pointed out on here awhile back that Dawson was most likely on steroids in 1987. America and baseball also had a different stance on things back then. Who knows what people will think 20 yrs from now or 2 years from now when we have 5+ 500 HR hitters that have not gone in.
Also since when do Greenies + hitting the gym help a 10 HR SS hit 40? that same SS doing HGH or roids does matter even without hitting the gym.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by The Game

How many players are already in the HOF that took steroids that we dont know about?

It wouldn't shock me to know that we just added another one or maybe more with the new class. We need to move on from this nonsense but won't until people stop drawing artificial lines in the sand.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by The Game

How many players are already in the HOF that took steroids that we dont know about? Grandfather rules apply. Someone pointed out on here awhile back that Dawson was most likely on steroids in 1987. America and baseball also had a different stance on things back then. Who knows what people will think 20 yrs from now or 2 years from now when we have 5+ 500 HR hitters that have not gone in.
Also since when do Greenies + hitting the gym help a 10 HR SS hit 40? that same SS doing HGH or roids does matter even without hitting the gym.

We don't know who did what for the most part. Sure you can apply that label to Bonds and Clemens, but where do you draw the line? It's ok for someone who didn't get caught to get in because they cheated better, or got lucky?

Let's stop pretending an entire era didn't happen. I'm all for playing the game clean, but I'd rather see them toughen the penalties today. It's ok to get suspended then get rewarded with a massive contract like it never happened, but we need to make sure Clemens never gets into the Hall because what he did was legal under baseball rules at the time he did it.

If the Hall made a rule that anyone suspended for peds going forward wouldn't be eligible for the Hall I'd be fine with that. Grandfather everyone else in. Would it stop cheaters? I doubt it, not when the rewards are in the millions for using.

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

I was under the impression that Pete Rose always bet on his team to win (when he bet on his team in the first place).

Shoeless Joe...different story, though his stats in that World Series are actually quite impressive.

Pete Rose bet on his team when he was in a position to make decisions that would change the ability of the team to win on that OR OTHER days. Things like pushing a pitcher on a day where he had placed a bet, making in tougher for him to win on days when he didn't.

Jackson was guilty of taking money and being aware of a fix without reporting it.

All of this aside, I think that Rose SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame, because his play dictates it. Jackson should only be in if you think he deserves it with ZERO 'bonus points' added for the time he missed while banned. That is a maybe...

However, my point being that what these two are guilty of is WAAAAAAY worse than taking steroids (or greenies, or throwing spitballs, or whatever), and none of this is as bad as the overt racism that kept black players out of the game.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by John Madden

Those stats are exactly why many people (myself included) believe Shoeless Joe didn't follow through with his promise to throw the series at all, and deserves induction.

Let's do a little review of Joe Jackson in the 1919 World Series:

G1: Jackson goes 0-4, no key situations.

G2: Down 3-0, Jackson strikes out looking with a runner on 2nd in the 6th inning. Top of the 8th, trailing 4-2 with 2 outs, Shoeless bloops a single just over the head of the firstbaseman and inexplicably takes a huge turn at first base. The firstbaseman airmails the easy throw to pick him off. Jackson advances to 2nd.

G3: Bottom of 3rd, leading 2-0, Jackson pops up a bunt to 1B with runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs. Bottom of the 6th, up 3-0 Jackson gets thrown out trying to steal 2nd after singling to open the frame.

G4: Leads off the bottom of the 2nd with a "double" on a ball that drops in after a miscommunication between Edd Roush and Greasy Neale. Gets stranded at 3rd. Bottom of the 3rd, still scoreless, grounds out to 2nd with two outs, man on 2nd.

G5: Bottom of the 1st, no score, Shoeless pops out to 3rd with 1 out, men on 1st and 3rd. Bottom of the 9th, down 5-0, Jackson grounds out with 2 away and a runner on 3rd base.

G6: Top of the 6th, trailing 4-1, Jackson singles home Buck Weaver with no outs. Top of the 10th, Shoeless lays down a bunt single with Weaver on 2nd, no outs while tied 4-4. Weaver scores 2 batters later on a single by Chick Gandil.

G7: Top of the 1st, Shano Collins on 2nd with 2 outs, Jackson singles him home. But for some reason, for the second time in the series, wanders way off 1st taking the turn, but issafe back at first when Jake Daubert drops the throw. Up 1-0 in the 3rd, Shoeless singles home Shano Collins again with 2 outs. Leading 2-0 in the top of the 5th, Jackson grounds out with 2 outs with men on 1st and 2nd.

G8: In the 3rd inning down 5-0, Jackson hits a solo homer. Bottom of the 8th, Jackson hits a 2-run double while trailing 10-1. Bottom of the 9th, trailing 10-5 with runners on 3rd and 2nd, Jackson grounds out to end the Series.

Yet despite all of this, he set what was a record for 45 years for hits in a World Series, almost all of which came when the outcome has been pretty much decided.

Defensively, 9 of the Reds 16 extra base hits are hit to Jackson's direction in left field, including three triples(!).

Also, excerpts from Joe Jackson's court testimony:

A Well, Attel was supposed to give the $100,000. It was to be split up, paid to him, I believe, and $15,000 a day or something like that, after each game.

Q That is to Gandil?

A Yes.

Q At the end of the first game you didn't get any money, did you?

A No, I did not, no, sir.

Q Then you went ahead and threw the second game, thinking you would get it then, is that right?

A We went ahead and threw the second game, we went after him again. I said to him, What are you going to do? "Everything is all right?" he says, What the hell is the matter?

Q After the third game what did you say to him?

A After the third game I says, "Somebody is getting a nice little jazz, everybody is crossed." He said, "Well, Abe Attel and Bill Burns had crossed him." that is what he said to me.

Q He said Abe Attel and Bill Burns had crossed him?

A Yes, sir.

Q After throwing the fourth game, did you talk to him then before Williams brought you the money?

A No, sir; I didn't talk to him then, no, sir. Williams and I talked.

I find it interesting that Shoeless Joes doesn't start hitting when it counts until Game 6. Or that he was ticked off about not getting the rest of the money for the games that were thrown.

Shoeless Joe Jackson was a fantastic player. And I want to believe that he has been unfairly punished. But this blind faith in ".375, 0 errors" as proof that he wasn't involved just doesn't stand up to scrutiny when looked at in context.

[rudel.dietrich]

I don't care how he played in the series. He knew about the fix and did not report it.

Gambling and fixing is the worst disease that professional sports can be infected with and needs to be dealt with harshly. Even if Jackson did not do anything to influence the series, his knowledge of the fix is enough for banishment if I was commissioner.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It wouldn't shock me to know that we just added another one or maybe more with the new class. We need to move on from this nonsense but won't until people stop drawing artificial lines in the sand.

Who Glavine? Frank was 6'5 270 his rookie year and actually got smaller til he retired. He also had power from day one. That being said, if it ever comes out that Thomas did take roids I will never watch baseball ever again.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by The Game

Who Glavine? Frank was 6'5 270 his rookie year and actually got smaller til he retired. He also had power from day one. That being said, if it ever comes out that Thomas did take roids I will never watch baseball ever again.

His rookie year matters because nobody would start steroids in college, or high school? He couldn't do steroids because he was a vocal critic. He wouldn't be the first or probably last who spoke out, but was caught.

I have no reason to suspect he did, but if you put that much faith into someone you are bound to be disappointed.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by The Game

Who Glavine? Frank was 6'5 270 his rookie year and actually got smaller til he retired. He also had power from day one. That being said, if it ever comes out that Thomas did take roids I will never watch baseball ever again.

I feel for you.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

His rookie year matters because nobody would start steroids in college, or high school? He couldn't do steroids because he was a vocal critic. He wouldn't be the first or probably last who spoke out, but was caught.

I have no reason to suspect he did, but if you put that much faith into someone you are bound to be disappointed.

My list of players that I was adamant that they did not take Roids, Big Mac, Raffy, Clemens, Jim Parque & Jim Miller. With the exception of Parque all had a huge upswing in production while on steroids.I have not seen that with Thomas. But Thomas did play along side many players who have admitted to being on steroids. Canseco to name one and several players who I think might have been on it namely Joey Belle, Maggs & Ellis Burks.

[CONN CHRIS]

It shouldn't shock any of us any longer that anyone from the recent era took steroids. It's time to move on in my opinion. We can't pretend the era didn't exist or naively hold out hero worship-like hope that this guy or that guy was above reproach (which is just begging to be disappointed). It happened and players had the careers they had.


I think it's time to support serious testing, strong enforcement and draconian punishment moving forward but let the nonsense about divining who did and didn't use die along with the notion that this era doesn't 'count' in some respect.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It shouldn't shock any of us any longer that anyone from the recent era took steroids. It's time to move on in my opinion. We can't pretend the era didn't exist or naively hold out hero worship-like hope that this guy or that guy was above reproach (which is just begging to be disappointed). It happened and players had the careers they had.


I think it's time to support serious testing, strong enforcement and draconian punishment moving forward but let the nonsense about divining who did and didn't use die along with the notion that this era doesn't 'count' in some respect.

Well said.

[Marinersfan51]

My feelings on steroid users is that they should be allowed in the hall if they used before they were outlawed and would have been a hall of famer without them, so yes to Bonds and Clemens, no to Sosa and McGwire. There is going to be some suspicion surrounding every player that played in the steroid era, though there are a few guys that I am pretty much 100% sure didn't juice, mostly Thomas, Randy Johnson, and Jaime Moyer, though I highly doubt Maddux or Glavine were on anything.

[Jason Moyer]

2 players played the same position during the same era:

2322 G 73.6 WAR
2150 G 79.5 WAR

Neither was ever suspected of taking PEDs. Which one do you put in?

And the whole steroids thing would be a good reason to keep people out IF THEY HADN'T ALREADY BEEN IN BASEBALL FOR 30 YEARS BEFORE CANSECO AND MCGWIRE PLAYED A GAME IN THE BIG LEAGUES. Ok/thx.