What's the Deal with New York, NY Population and the boroughs?

[silvam14]

In the World.xml file, there is the city of New York with 8 Million some-odd population. Then there are also the boroughs like Bronx, Queens, Manhattan with their own big population numbers.

Are the city of New York's Population a sum of the boroughs? if so, isn't having the city of New York redundant? Any ideas?

[CD1083]

Originally Posted by silvam14

In the World.xml file, there is the city of New York with 8 Million some-odd population. Then there are also the boroughs like Bronx, Queens, Manhattan with their own big population numbers.

Are the city of New York's Population a sum of the boroughs? if so, isn't having the city of New York redundant? Any ideas?

New York City is it's own borough. Most refer to it as Manhattan. You've also got Kings County (Brooklyn), Queens, Bronx and Richmond (Staten Island)

[mikecos23]

Hmmm, so here are the latest 2011 census #'s - if each borough is separate in the game than the "New York City" (Manhattan) population should be adjusted down then.

Borough of County of Census
Manhattan New York 1,585,873
The Bronx Bronx 1,385,108
Brooklyn Kings 2,504,700
Queens Queens 2,230,722
Staten Island Richmond 468,730

City of New York
8,175,133

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Are the city of New York's Population a sum of the boroughs? if so, isn't having the city of New York redundant? Any ideas?

In the real world, the population of New York City proper is composed of the sum of its five boroughs: Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, and Staten Island.

In 1990, for example, the total population of NYC was 7,322,564. Broken down by borough it was: Bronx, 1,203,789; Brooklyn, 2,300,664; Manhattan, 1,487,536; Queens, 1,951,598; and Staten Island, 378,977.

If Brooklyn was a separate city, its population of 2.3 million in 1990 would have made it the fourth largest city in the U.S. that year, ahead of Houston's 1.6 million.

(Note that the population of the metropolitan area of New York is even larger due to the surrounding urbanized areas being added to the population of the city itself.)

[silvam14]

It just seems by having the boroughs and New York city in the world.XML file, that the population is doubled. I see many players, staff created who are from New York City, but I also see a lot of people created from the boroughs.

I just want to make sure that the city and the boroughs are not combining to double the population


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thundercrack]

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

New York City is it's own borough. Most refer to it as Manhattan. You've also got Kings County (Brooklyn), Queens, Bronx and Richmond (Staten Island)

No. New York City is not a borough. It is a city comprised of five boroughs, none of them named New York City.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by silvam14

It just seems by having the boroughs and New York city in the world.XML file, that the population is doubled. I see many players, staff created who are from New York City, but I also see a lot of people created from the boroughs.

I just want to make sure that the city and the boroughs are not combining to double the population


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you're seeing a huge number of New York born players in the draft or a fictional league, the original world xml file has a bug; do a search for 'New York Players' or similar, Andreas posted a fixed world xml file in it.

The NY population is effectively doubled, but I think this is so that fictional leagues can have teams in NY, or any of it's suburbs, with their own 'market sizes'.

[Questdog]

I just always delete the boroughs....

It was the same way in the old nations.txt.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

If you're seeing a huge number of New York born players in the draft or a fictional league, the original world xml file has a bug; do a search for 'New York Players' or similar, Andreas posted a fixed world xml file in it.

The NY population is effectively doubled, but I think this is so that fictional leagues can have teams in NY, or any of it's suburbs, with their own 'market sizes'.

No, I'm using the updated world.xml file. I'm not seeing ridiculous numbers from NEw york anymore

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I just always delete the boroughs....

It was the same way in the old nations.txt.

Either that or delete New York City, right?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Either that or delete New York City, right?

Yeah. I just preferred having New York City, though.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Yeah. I just preferred having New York City, though.

Right, but now we have to be cognizant of subtracting the populations being deleted from the national population. What a pain!

[ashantewarrier]

Well as a native "Noo Yawker" born and bred, it is my opinion that Manhattan should be deleted. Manhattan IS NEW YORK, NY!!! For example, when postal mail is sent to New York, NY it goes to Manhattan.

Yes, the five boroughs make up New York City but, Manhattan is referred to as New York, NY as well.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In the real world, the population of New York City proper is composed of the sum of its five boroughs: Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, and Staten Island.

In 1990, for example, the total population of NYC was 7,322,564. Broken down by borough it was: Bronx, 1,203,789; Brooklyn, 2,300,664; Manhattan, 1,487,536; Queens, 1,951,598; and Staten Island, 378,977.

If Brooklyn was a separate city, its population of 2.3 million in 1990 would have made it the fourth largest city in the U.S. that year, ahead of Houston's 1.6 million.

(Note that the population of the metropolitan area of New York is even larger due to the surrounding urbanized areas being added to the population of the city itself.)

LGO, as always you are on point.

[CD1083]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack

No. New York City is not a borough. It is a city comprised of five boroughs, none of them named New York City.

See post 13.

Those who live in the bronx or Brooklyn do not say they live in New York City.

Those outside of the New York area refer to all of southern NY as NYC, including Westchester (Yonkers), Nassau and Suffolk County (Long Island) even though they aren't apart of the 'City'

So yeah, for those who live there it is.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Chase Davis

See post 13.

Those who live in the bronx or Brooklyn do not say they live in New York City.

Those outside of the New York area refer to all of southern NY as NYC, including Westchester (Yonkers), Nassau and Suffolk County (Long Island) even though they aren't apart of the 'City'

So yeah, for those who live there it is.

Yes. Growing up in Brooklyn and later Staten Island we always referred to Manhattan as "The City" as in New York City.
Living in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and The Bronx you refer to either one of those boroughs as where you live.
But we always understood that the five boroughs make up the City of New York. The population of New York City is VERY, VERY, big.
It is why the Metropolitan area at one point could support 3 baseball teams. As LGO explained earlier, Brooklyn by itself is one of the top five cities in the U.S.

I now live in Central New Jersey which is considered a suburb or the New York Metropolitan area.
When people ask me where I am from, I normally say Brooklyn or Staten Island. If I said New York City, folks here would ask me to be more specific.

Also, being from New York City (all 5 boroughs) and being from New York State is like night and day. New York State and New York, NY are so far removed from each other.
Both are worlds apart from each other culturally, politically and socially.

It's one of those quirks that us "Noo Yawkers" understand. Just like you never refer to The Bronx as Bronx. It's always THE Bronx.

[mhjohann]

I wonder if the new Region function can accommodate grouping cities. It uses Nations and States in the world_default.xml currently. So a totally conjectured example grouping the 5 boroughs below:

<CITY id="12985" name="Brooklyn" pop="2465326" lat="40.65" long="-73.95" abbr="BRO" />
<CITY id="79081" name="Bronx" pop="1332650" lat="40.85" long="-73.86" abbr="BRX" />
<CITY id="63931" name="Queens" pop="2229379" lat="40.74" long="-73.79" abbr="QNS" />
<CITY id="67138" name="Staten Island" pop="443728" lat="40.58" long="-74.15" abbr="SI" />
<CITY id="52882" name="Manhattan" pop="1537195" lat="40.78" long="-73.96" abbr="MAN" />


<REGION id="99" name="New York City">
<REGION_CITIES>
<REGION_CITY id="12985" />
<REGION_CITY id="79081" />
<REGION_CITY id="63931" />
<REGION_CITY id="67138" />
<REGION_CITY id="52882" />
</REGION_CITIES>
</REGION>

All a moot point since apparently Regions are not actively used in the game at present.

Michael

[mikecos23]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Well as a native "Noo Yawker" born and bred, it is my opinion that Manhattan should be deleted. Manhattan IS NEW YORK, NY!!! For example, when postal mail is sent to New York, NY it goes to Manhattan.

Yes, the five boroughs make up New York City but, Manhattan is referred to as New York, NY as well.

I have to agree, living in the northeast (NJ) and having lived a few years in Brooklyn myself, no one in this part of the country would ever lump the boroughs together - they are such distinct demographics. And yes, I agree, if you are going to NYC, it certainly means heading into Manhattan and not any of the other boroughs.

Didn't want my original response with the population #'s to come off as picky, but doubling the NYC area population will certainly cause a huge rise in players from NYC.

So has anyone come up with how many players in the current MLB are from NYC It would certainly be interesting !!!LOL

[mikecos23]

Whoa, these numbers are shocking to me. Couldn't resist running a query on baseball reference...

So of the active players for 2011, which baseball reference comes up with 1,063, a total of 775 players are from the US and 288 from all other countries. As for players born is the US, here is the top 10:

California 169 players 15.9%
Texas 91 players 8.6%
Florida 76 players 7.1%
Georgia 35 players 3.3%
Illinois 24 players 2.3%
Ohio 24 players 2.3%
Indiana 20 players 1.9%
Missouri 18 players 1.7%
North Carolina 17 players 1.6%
Virginia 17 players 1.6%

So New York doesn't even crack the top 10. They came in with 14 players.

And how about the other countries:
Dominican Republic 104 players 9.8%
Venezuela 67 players 6.3%
Puerto Rico 27 players 2.5%
Canada 19 players 1.8%
Mexico 14 players 1.3%
Cuba 13 players 1.2%
Japan 11 players 1.0%

Interesting stuff!!!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Yes. Growing up in Brooklyn and later Staten Island we always referred to Manhattan as "The City" as in New York City.
Living in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and The Bronx you refer to either one of those boroughs as where you live.
But we always understood that the five boroughs make up the City of New York. The population of New York City is VERY, VERY, big.
It is why the Metropolitan area at one point could support 3 baseball teams. As LGO explained earlier, Brooklyn by itself is one of the top five cities in the U.S.

I now live in Central New Jersey which is considered a suburb or the New York Metropolitan area.
When people ask me where I am from, I normally say Brooklyn or Staten Island. If I said New York City, folks here would ask me to be more specific.

This thread illustrates the problems in determining exactly what boundaries one should be using for places in the database, as those boundaries can have a big impact on the population figure of that place.

At the lowest level is the official limits of the city/town as legally incorporated. But that only records the population in the core urban area; it doesn't capture the population in the surrounding urban and suburban area. So the next step up is the urbanized area, and the next step up from there is the Metropolitan or Micropolitan Statistical Area.

Pittsburgh, PA, is a good example of this conundrum. The population of the city proper, as recorded in the 2000 census, was 334,563 (rank: 54th). The population of the Pittsburgh urbanized area was listed in the census as 1,753,043 (23rd). The population of the Pittsburgh MSA was 2,358,695 (22nd). As you can see, there is quite a difference in the population totals between the levels of categorization. The MSA definition includes the population of the counties surrounding the central core, which means it includes as part of Pittsburgh the numerous smaller yet separately incorporated cities and towns.

So what is the right figure to use? Only the city proper? The urbanized area? The metropolitan statistical area?

As you go up in level you lose detail in that the surrounding smaller places' population is rolled into the core's population. But if you define things at the city/town/village level you end up with an enormous number of places (9,147 with a population of 2,500 or more according to the 2000 U.S. census, with another 5,175 having a population between 1,000-2,500), and you have to determine the relationship between those places to any nearby larger, core urban area.

At the other end of the scale, the metropolitan statistical area covers a lot of territory; there were 280 MSA listed in the 2000 census (these are defined as areas of 50,000 or more core population; there are also micropolitan statistical areas, which cover core populations of 10,000-50,000; I don't have the figure handy but there were something like 500 or so of these if I recall correctly).

This question of how exactly to define the boundaries of a place is important because it goes to the nature of how much a given place might be able to support a ball club. Generally, the bigger the population, the bigger the pool from which a club can draw fans.

It's a question I've been struggling with for some time now, and one to which I have no satisfactory answer. I keep going back and forth on what to do. But for an economic system in which the size of the host place determines in large measure the likely financial success of a club located there, it's a vitally important question to answer in order for OOTP's financial environment to become more realistic, dynamic, and just plain better.