Commish accountability tools?

[grommy]

I tried a search to see if this has been discussed before, but didn't turn anything up offhand. Sorry if it has.

How difficult would it be to add functionality to online leagues that includes an option to log all manual commissioner moves (i.e. player editor) into a report? It just seems to me that it would add a sense of assurance to league members that they don't have now, that things will be run correctly and will help to bring honest commishes out from under a cloud of suspicion if their team happens to (god forbid) do well.

Could the game even save/send a bit when a sim is run to note how many times a given sim was run from a certain date? This game has such great online functionality, but how many times do we have to join leagues where the commish starts running away with the league in yr 1? I think an option to open the black box up a bit would be an awesome improvement for us online players.

[Molson]

yeah, this would be nice

[ukhotstove]

If you have a doubt about a commish your in the wrong league, I've been in the LBA, BA and the NABL recently and have trusted each commish 100%.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by grommy

I tried a search to see if this has been discussed before, but didn't turn anything up offhand. Sorry if it has.

How difficult would it be to add functionality to online leagues that includes an option to log all manual commissioner moves (i.e. player editor) into a report? It just seems to me that it would add a sense of assurance to league members that they don't have now, that things will be run correctly and will help to bring honest commishes out from under a cloud of suspicion if their team happens to (god forbid) do well.

Could the game even save/send a bit when a sim is run to note how many times a given sim was run from a certain date? This game has such great online functionality, but how many times do we have to join leagues where the commish starts running away with the league in yr 1? I think an option to open the black box up a bit would be an awesome improvement for us online players.

I've been playing this game since version 1 and have never been in a league where the commish runs away with the league in year one. How many have you been in where that happened?

Commishes who do cheat, soon get what they deserve, a reputation.

Commishes who run an honest league also get what they deserve, a reputation.

The difference is, one gets a bad rep, the other gets a good rep.

If you're serious about playing in online leagues, join an established one. There are plenty out there, and if you look, you'll find an opening.


Also, you can't rerun a sim many times in OOTP unless you're doing it over and over with a different copy of the league file each time. If that were the case, it wouldn't be possible to record since the file is always different.

There's a certain trust involved in playing in online leagues, almost everyone I know who's playing is trustworthy and would never cheat.

Anyone who cheats at this game is only cheating themself anyway. I just don't see how someone could feel a sense of accomplishment by winning something they cheated to get.

[grommy]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I've been playing this game since version 1 and have never been in a league where the commish runs away with the league in year one. How many have you been in where that happened?

So, I may exaggerate a bit

I've been in 3 leagues. The first I (with other league members) suspected the commish of foul play off the bat. I can say now, that I think almost 100% that those were unfounded suspicions and that he ran a clean ship. The second, I suspect some funny business, but can't prove it or say for sure that I am right. The 3rd and most recent, I can see hard evidence that the commish has been fiddling. It's just totally disappointing to feel you've wasted your time. I don't care about the satisfaction the commish might or might not feel from cheating. I don't want to waste my time!

My point isn't so much that the problem is terribly rampant (i believe it's not), but that with a very small addition to the game, much of that cloud of suspicion could be lifted. It doesn't need to be mandatory, but I think it would make a great and simple option.

As for the multi-simming problem I definitely saw that answer coming, and I don't have a good solution either. I was thinking that the game could force a signal out to the server telling it that the sim had started or something, but I guess then the files on your server can be messed with as well. Perhaps the developers could hide the count outside of your game folder, in a not so easy to edit repository/file, and force it in (+1) when you run the sim. I don't know.

[RchW]

I completely agree with Bluenoser. I can't imagine the dead zone a persons life would have to be in for them to cheat in an online league. What an empty feeling that must be.

Putting philosophy aside I guarantee that any cheater will be caught. There are way too many sharp eyed people who know each league inside and out and will spot something.

A few years ago (v6 days) I left a couple of leagues where some shady stuff was going on. Any recent league I've been in has been run with the utmost care and honesty to the best of my knowledge.

Cheating isn't confined to commissioners. The most common way of cheating is for one person to own two or more teams and manipulate rosters via trades. Most commishes are on alert for this activity and will toss the person immediately.

Like others have said if you have doubts find another league. With a little research you are sure to find an opening in a well run league.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

What I'd like to see is the ability to "Lock" the Player Editor, and have all changes to that functionality logged somewhere for everyone to see.

Most online leagues don't require the Player Editor at all, so it could be permanently turned off. If the "Lock" functionality is available, then the leagues that do need the Player Editor could ensure it's only used the one or two times per sim year that it's needed. There are already ways via add-on tools to track when ratings changed, so it'd be obvious something was up if all of the changes correspond to the time the Player Editor is unlocked.

I've run several leagues over the years, and no one has ever questioned my integrity. However, it'd still be nice to be able to prove without question that it's impossible for me to touch the editor. An online league is usually strangers over the internet who will never meet face-to-face, and some people can put quite a bit of time into their teams - the extra assurance would be a nice addition.

[grommy]

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

What I'd like to see is the ability to "Lock" the Player Editor, and have all changes to that functionality logged somewhere for everyone to see.

This is an even better idea in my opinion, because this keeps the commish's eyes off the ratings and data that no one else can see. I would think that even some commishes on the "up-and-up" take the occasional peek at players to see better granularity in their ratings, etc. without changing anything.

[Corsairs]

I've had the good fortune of talking with a number of OOTP online league commissioners, and I can say with confidence that every last one I've spoken to has put far too much love and effort into their creation to even dream of fudging the results. Just speaking for myself, it would be incomprehensible to even dream of. I value both my league and my owners too much to abuse my responsibility.

That being said, if you're an owner who has a hard time placing trust in a commissioner, I can offer you this suggestion: Seek a league where the commissioner doesn't run a team. A commissioner acting as an independent entity should remove a great deal of doubt from the equation. But again, let me stress that any league you see advertising here that's been around for any length of time - whether the commissioner is independent or runs a team - is almost assuredly a cleanly run operation.

[Goody]

If you think the commish is the only one with the ability to peek at the ratings, you're living in a fantasy world. This software is not Fort Knox.

Play with people who are here to have fun...not prove they are better than everyone else. Pick your leagues carefully. Keep your community small and get to know everyone the best you can.

I was recently ripped off in a few trades in a league and I realized it pretty quick, but I just rolled with the punches.

(If I'd paid more attention I would have caught it but I was too trusting because I hadn't had a bad experience like that before...changing player's positions so the look more valuable at first glance...stuff like that)

There's a million ways for people to cheat. Take to time to find people who don't and if you just fell into a league easily don't expect to much out of the people there.

All that said, control measure are good for your piece of mind. And careless commish's and owners who cheat (the ones that do are usually careless) will maybe be exposed by them...

[DWK]

Originally Posted by Goody

If you think the commish is the only one with the ability to peek at the ratings, you're living in a fantasy world. This software is not Fort Knox.

Play with people who are here to have fun...not prove they are better than everyone else. Pick your leagues carefully. Keep your community small and get to know everyone the best you can.

I was recently ripped off in a few trades in a league and I realized it pretty quick, but I just rolled with the punches.

(If I'd paid more attention I would have caught it but I was too trusting because I hadn't had a bad experience like that before...changing player's positions so the look more valuable at first glance...stuff like that)

There's a million ways for people to cheat. Take to time to find people who don't and if you just fell into a league easily don't expect to much out of the people there.

All that said, control measure are good for your piece of mind. And careless commish's and owners who cheat (the ones that do are usually careless) will maybe be exposed by them...

Very good points

[Jaxxvain]

I always find these discussions a bit baffling.

No offense to those who have posted above, but not understanding a cheater's mentality does not mean that cheating does not exist.

I have played online leagues for years, and I am sure there have been cheaters here and there. I don't think any of them were commishes though.

I also commish a league now (PRML, currently looking for GMs).
I have used the player editor on drafted players, just to make players more interesting, IMHO, tinkering with potentials, nicknames, birthplaces, etc. I hope no one in my league has considered this cheating, but this post made me decide to post that I do in fact edit some players (only players who have never played a game).

Back to the topic though, it seems to me something relatively simple could be done, with a log file, that tracks changes to the league file or whatever.
To further ensure integrity of a league and it's participants (and commish).

ps. I just recently accidentally re-discovered my old ootp forum login (Molson), which I used as the second post of this thread. I created the Jaxxvain account because I couldn't get into the Molson account back in 2006 for some reason.

[WillieMaysHayes]

You should post this in the suggestions forum, not here...

Anyways...A commish has so many ways of cheating that you're better off just intensely shopping around until you find the right one for you. Sure you could create a log file, but the commish also has control over the website and the web content. You'd have to make the report be an in-game thing I guess?

My gripe with a few commissioners I have played with is free agency. They conduct imports, save the file name as something else (league-test.lg) and roll it a few weeks to see what everyone is offering. Then they can go back to the actual league.lg file and outbid you. I don't know how or what to suggest to Markus to alleviate this problem, but it's one of the biggest anti-cheat improvements they could make. The commissioner is in such a powerful position when bidding against clubs, and I am pretty sure it's been used against me at the very least a few times.

All this being said, I am starting my own league here in about a week.....if you're interested in joining let me know I don't cheat...and in fact I am making a league file available at the very initial start that will be commissioner-password free so that everyone can sim/trial-runs/whatever to their heart's content. I am also going to provide screenshots of every rule page there is, because I hate that there are so many options now without notice to owners of whats turned on or off.....The days of simply stating "Join a 2010 real-life league...DH rule turned off" simply don't do enough explanation anymore for me to make a judgment call on whether or not to join a league.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by WillieMaysHayes

My gripe with a few commissioners I have played with is free agency. They conduct imports, save the file name as something else (league-test.lg) and roll it a few weeks to see what everyone is offering. Then they can go back to the actual league.lg file and outbid you. I don't know how or what to suggest to Markus to alleviate this problem, but it's one of the biggest anti-cheat improvements they could make. The commissioner is in such a powerful position when bidding against clubs, and I am pretty sure it's been used against me at the very least a few times.

Technically a commissioner doesn't have to sim ahead to see what people are bidding. It is far easier than that honestly. A commissioner pretty much has supreme authority/power over your game universe so to speak. It probably is best that everyone keep that in mind when thinking about joining a league.

It is pretty important that you join a league that has a Commissioner in it that you either fully trust or is highly reputable or you likely will end up constantly wondering if there is anything flaky going on behind the scenes. With the way players will suddenly flame out early, or last longer than normal, or get sudden talent bumps or injuries, there are simply far too many things every day that can happen on its own inside of OOTP to look fishy without the Commissioner even being involved. If you add to the mix a lack of trust for the Commissioner, then you are only asking for trouble at that point.

As someone else mentioned above, I made the decision a long time ago to not own a team in my two leagues that I run. I solely commish only to make sure everyone understands that I am completely impartial. I would like to think that every single member in my leagues trust me fully already but this takes any hint of concern away. I rarely have any openings in my leagues that I run, but I know that there are many other leagues that the commish only does that and does not run a team. If you are highly concerned about the possibility of the commish cheating, I encourage you to look into one of those leagues.

That said, I know dozens and dozens of fine members of the OOTP community that commish as well as run a team in the league and do so with great integrity. Remember when joining a league that the interview process should be two-ways. The Commish should be trying to determine if you are the right fit for their league but you also need to make sure that the league is the right fit for you as well. Don't be afraid to ask them questions or talk about concerns that might scare you to see how they normally handle such things. If they are upset by that or put off by that, then it might just not be the right league for you anyways.

As for the Accountability tools, it is not that uncommon in security software to have an audit log of changes for accountability reasons. I'm guessing that they could add an audit log to online actions in a future version of OOTP if they feel the demand is worth the time involved to add it to the game. I would recommend as a previous poster said to post in the suggestions for future versions to make sure that it gets proper visibility for their planning as well as allows a larger audience of people to comment regarding it as well.

[fhomess]

From a programming standpoint, there's really nothing Markus can do that cheaters can't get around, and it took me less than 5 seconds to think of ways around every suggestion made in this thread already. I really believe that implementing some form of logging would give people a greater impression of honesty even when it doesn't exist. I would echo the sentiments of others that if you have concerns about cheating, the two most reliable ways of making sure that the league you're joining is legit is to join an established league (or one with an established/respected commish) with a commish that doesn't run a team. These types of leagues really aren't that hard to find, and the turnover of leagues is high enough that most don't have very long waiting lists if at all.

The last suggestion would be to watch the league for a bit before joining. Check out the forums and see how GM's interact. A little patience and study will help you join a league that is right for you. I'd go so far as to say that it'll make the league more positive about bringing you on as a GM, too. GM turnover is a regular part of online leagues, but it's also disruptive to online leagues, so leagues have incentive to bring on GM's they trust as well.

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by fhomess

From a programming standpoint, there's really nothing Markus can do that cheaters can't get around...

You know, I had given some thought to this a few years ago and had a few ideas pop in my head at the time. However, for whatever reasons, I got sidetracked and never got around to offering them to Markus.

One particular idea, I think has some potential, is to utilize the online league email system as a lock of sorts. In order to prevent multiple simming, as soon as the commish clicks any sim button, OOTP does the following:

1. Attempts to connect to the internet. Failure to connect aborts the sim.
2. Attempts to send league emails notifying the league members that a sim is being run at XX:XX pm/am EDT(for example). If the connection in step one was found, these emails are sent before the sim gets run. Failure to send emails need not cause an aborted sim.


I would also suggest locking the player editor(as mentioned before) and require unlocking once per session. Unlocking would run the above routine of connecting to the internet and sending emails.

Attempts at disabling Online League Mode would also run the same routine.

An alternative to email is to have a central sim certification. In this case, a commish of a new league signs up for certification from, say AllSimBaseball.com. He receives a strip of code which he inputs into the game, (we'll call a certification box) in the online league settings. Then, the game does the following...

If(only when certification is enabled!)...

* a sim is attempted
* access to the editor is attempted
* disabling Online League mode is attempted
* disabling certification is attempted

Then OOTP...

1. Attempts to connect to the internet. Failure to connect aborts the sim.
2. After connection, OOTP makes an entry into the certification website's designated database, via the snippet of php code provided, regarding the commissioner's actions. These actions would be displayed for viewing via the certification website in log form for each online league registered.

Also a comments field could be added that pops up for commissioners to explain the reason they are accessing the editor or disabling online league mode. No such pop up and field would be necessary for just running a sim.

Then, commishes would always have the option of putting all minds at ease by placing a prominent "Certified By.." logo-stamp on their website.

By the way, I agree with a lot of what you have all said on the topic. Being a commish of a league that has been around for 6 real years and 40 in-game seasons, I also host and support more than 50 online leagues. I want nothing more than for these leagues to have success. If something like this puts people's minds at ease, I'm all for it.

[Cooleyvol]

All good ideas, montoya, but in a league such as mine (promotion/relegation) with player loans, I have to edit a player's team from time to time.

The constant 'explaining' of what my owners know I already have to do sporadically would become tedious. In addition, I edit our amateur pool to meet our needs prior to the draft begining. I'm sure I'm not alone.

With regard to player ratings, I'd think running statslab would cover that since it has a development report. I thought that only tracked 'in game' ratings changes.

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

All good ideas, montoya, but in a league such as mine (promotion/relegation) with player loans, I have to edit a player's team from time to time.

The constant 'explaining' of what my owners know I already have to do sporadically would become tedious. In addition, I edit our amateur pool to meet our needs prior to the draft begining. I'm sure I'm not alone.

With regard to player ratings, I'd think running statslab would cover that since it has a development report. I thought that only tracked 'in game' ratings changes.

Being that my proposal is only about a way of logging commish activity, your case may not be at all affected. The log could include more(or less) details showing exactly(or roughly) what the commissioner has edited(but not the values), meaning that there's but a record of commish editing showing publicly(or at least to that particular league).

[Cooleyvol]

I guess I just don't see cheating as that big of a problem to the point that we'd be required to have a 'key' and have to be online in order to do anything within our league as commissioners.

[JWay]

Hey if we had a centralized OOTP online, we'd all be happy! Yay...

Sigh