Regarding trading--Not a debate but just interested in knowing who agrees

[mking55]

Greetings;

I'm not looking for a debate and I'm not looking for suggestions. I'm just trying to find out how many, if any, agree with me. If you don't post here, that means you don't agree. You don't have to post you don't agree. Your silence will speak for you.

I don't want this to deteriorate into an argument. This is one man's opinion (mine) and I'd like to know if I'm alone or there are others who feel the same.

This only regards historical replays because for all I know the fictional player trading module has no problems. So I am limiting this to those who play historical.

I have the league I created with OOTP 11 set to the hardest trading difficulty. I started my league in 1939 with the Philadelphia A's (a very weak team). I have now progressed to the 1962 season. Through trades, which I love to do, I have won every pennant since 1941.

My team's overall record in this league is 2588-962. That's crazy. To me, this is a huge flaw as no one should be able to rule their baseball universe like this on the supposedly hardest trading level.

I think the trading module (historical version) needs a serious overhaul. I find the game non-competitive because of this. I think if the trading were tightened up, the game would be much better, more fun, and more competitive.

I'd like to know if you agree with my feeling that the trading module (historical version) is extremely weak. This is not a poll. Just throw in a post if you agree, saying that you agree. If you have an example why you agree (such as the total domination of my league which I mentioned above), post that too.

Thank you,
Martin

[CHCfan]

I don't see much to agree or disagree with here yet, honestly. I definitely agree that I (as a human) have a better than 1/30 chance of being the best team in a given year, but I don't know whether trading is the main culprit or not.

For your league (2588-962), why don't you post some of the trades -- a randomish sample -- and we can see what the problem might be. You can comment on the trades, describing what you see wrong, or just post them as-is.

It's definitely worth a look.

[Cowboys3356]

Originally Posted by CHCfan

I don't see much to agree or disagree with here yet, honestly. I definitely agree that I (as a human) have a better than 1/30 chance of being the best team in a given year, but I don't know whether trading is the main culprit or not.

+1

The day I can not outsmart a computer playing a baseball sim will be a sad day indeed. I don't think we will see an AI so good in our lifetimes that it will be able to out think a human being on a regular basis although people are becoming dumber so maybe it will happen sooner than I think.

[kckid4u]

Originally Posted by mking55

My team's overall record in this league is 2588-962. That's crazy. To me, this is a huge flaw as no one should be able to rule their baseball universe like this on the supposedly hardest trading level.

I'd like to see a screen shot of the list of your leagues champions per year in your leagues history page. You've won every pennant since 1941 through 1962?

I know I'm not supposed to post here unless I agree with you, but I would like to see that.

[robc]

I agree that there are definitely trades that the AI makes that it shouldn't and any ideas that make the AI stronger are welcome ones. A game does get less fun if you can win at will. I don't think we should just accept that we will always be able to dominate the AI. That makes it harder for the game to keep getting better, which I would think everyone would want.

I am hoping that with the next patch the AI will become more competitive in historical games that have recalc turned on and calculate potential ratings based on remaining career years. Currently when recalc is turned on the potential ratings are always limited to the recalc period. Markus said he will change that. I only think this change can help the AI evaluate a players future value and therefore make the AI more competitive.

I prior poster had a good idea of posting trades that seem crazy. It may help to expose some weaknesses. It may be hard to fairly judge them without knowing the full context though.

Another thing to consider when judging trades is if scouting is turned on. If your scout has one view of a player and the AI scout is vastly different, that can make some trades look wonky.

A baseball sim is a hard one to make really competitive in single player mode. Most strategy games have difficulty levels we can set. Invariably there is a medium setting where the player and AI are on the same footing, and harder difficulty levels where the AI gets some bonuses or cheats. Other than some small things like the AI not having to warm up its pitchers, I don't think OOTP allows the AI to cheat. The equivilent of difficulty levels would let AI team players get a performance boost or something but that doesn't feel authentic. That makes it very difficult to keep the AI competitive.

Wow, sorry for the long post. In summary, let's not be complacent and think OOTP can't be improved. It keeps improving and still has lots of room to improve what is there.

[robc]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

I'd like to see a screen shot of the list of your leagues champions per year in your leagues history page. You've won every pennant since 1941 through 1962?

I know I'm not supposed to post here unless I agree with you, but I would like to see that.

I know there was some antagonism in the other thread from mking, but lets try not to snipe in this one. Let's try and keep this one productive.

No harm is asking to see the screenshot. I understand your curiosity but "I know I'm not supposed to post here unless I agree with you" that seemed like perhaps you were looking for an argument. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

[Left-handed Badger]

I am rather intrigued to see the trades personally. Personally, (only)sometimes I have trouble making trades that isnt cheating ME. But, that may be based on what I target. ANd I dont bother with historical, partly because I find defense to be less than accurate in past versions.

Note: Course, I rarely make such trades. Only if I am desperate (which would be a key to the fleecing). I'd rather deal with what I got. And I have been rather "creative" in getting what I can out of the players i got in a bad circumstance before, so I hope I can again.

[Elektranaut]

AI Trading is the Achillies heel of OOTP,even at the hardest settings it is still easy to outwit,the only solution is to impose arbitrary house rules on yourself.

[kckid4u]

Originally Posted by robc

Sorry if I misinterpreted.

No, you nailed it.

I just thought it isn't really appropriate to start a thread and then say who is allowed to post in it and who isn't. I mean "post here if you agree with me, and if you don't agree with me, don't make a post," Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. This is a public forum. But I don't really care enough to take this any further anyway, so don't worry about it.

I would like to see that screen shot though!

[mking55]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

No, you nailed it.

I just thought it isn't really appropriate to start a thread and then say who is allowed to post in it and who isn't. I mean "post here if you agree with me, and if you don't agree with me, don't make a post," Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. This is a public forum. But I don't really care enough to take this any further anyway, so don't worry about it.

I would like to see that screen shot though!

The reason for my preamble about only posting if you agree is that there is sometimes a tendency on these boards for a simple question turn into a heated argument. I wasn't interested in having that and it would defeat the purpose of my post.

As for the screen shot you requested, no problem. Here it is:

[CHCfan]

You might just be the best OOTPer ever. Don't think we can dismiss that possibility

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by mking55

Greetings;

I'm not looking for a debate and I'm not looking for suggestions. I'm just trying to find out how many, if any, agree with me. If you don't post here, that means you don't agree. You don't have to post you don't agree. Your silence will speak for you.

I don't want this to deteriorate into an argument. This is one man's opinion (mine) and I'd like to know if I'm alone or there are others who feel the same.

This only regards historical replays because for all I know the fictional player trading module has no problems. So I am limiting this to those who play historical.

I have the league I created with OOTP 11 set to the hardest trading difficulty. I started my league in 1939 with the Philadelphia A's (a very weak team). I have now progressed to the 1962 season. Through trades, which I love to do, I have won every pennant since 1941.

My team's overall record in this league is 2588-962. That's crazy. To me, this is a huge flaw as no one should be able to rule their baseball universe like this on the supposedly hardest trading level.

I think the trading module (historical version) needs a serious overhaul. I find the game non-competitive because of this. I think if the trading were tightened up, the game would be much better, more fun, and more competitive.

I'd like to know if you agree with my feeling that the trading module (historical version) is extremely weak. This is not a poll. Just throw in a post if you agree, saying that you agree. If you have an example why you agree (such as the total domination of my league which I mentioned above), post that too.

Thank you,
Martin

Unfortunately Markus is more interested in introducing more new features then working on the present bugs in the game.

We'll get his usual answer "It's working like intended" answer when he can't fix it right.

I guess he thinks that new features sells more of his game then fixing what is broken.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by CHCfan

I don't see much to agree or disagree with here yet, honestly. I definitely agree that I (as a human) have a better than 1/30 chance of being the best team in a given year, but I don't know whether trading is the main culprit or not.

For your league (2588-962), why don't you post some of the trades -- a randomish sample -- and we can see what the problem might be. You can comment on the trades, describing what you see wrong, or just post them as-is.

It's definitely worth a look.

Fair question.
Exhibit 1: Ted Williams

The Ted Williams trade has the name Dizzy Dean in it. However, this was not the all-powerful Dizzy Dean. This was the post-injury 2 star player Dizzy Dean who wasn't worth more than two bits. After the trade he posted a 29-34 record and retired in 1944 while Ted Williams played until 1959 with a career average of .329 along with 493 home runs and 2602 hits. He was also a 5 time batter of the year.

Exhibit 2: Bobby Doerr

This was my first big trade that started the ball rolling. Bobby Doerr was one of the greatest hitting 2b of all-time. I have no idea who those other players are.

Exhibit 3: Hank Greenberg

What can I say? The original Hammering Hank along with Dizzy Trout and Rudy York for a bunch of middling players? I wouldn't have given up Hank alone for the bunch of them.

Exhibit 4: Roy Campanella

Uck, I should be arrested.

Exhibit 5: Willie Mays

Willie Mays AND Minnie Minoso AND Jim Lemon AND Richie Ashburn for Cloyd Boyer and friends. Yup, this was a tough one to pull the trigger on.

Let's just say that these trades (of which I have lots more examples) represent exactly what your mind tells you they represent. Good to great players for fair to good players. None of these five trades (or several more I made) should never have been made by the AI.

As I said, I have an advantage in knowing baseball history but I believe you can program the trading module with a lot of this information so that more equitable trades are made, and some players (such as Ted Williams) are untouchable.

I can say with complete confidence that it is the trading module that has permitted me to dominate my league for over 20 seasons.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by CHCfan

You might just be the best OOTPer ever. Don't think we can dismiss that possibility

If only. My problem is I love to trade and because of that I have fallen into the victory hole and I can't climb out.

Think of how mediocre my team would be if I didn't make those trades and others like them. I'd actually have to work at building a winner. That sounds like fun. I'd like to try it.

Seriously, no player should be able to do what I've done in a finished product.

[golander40]

I simply go over each teams roster,and make the teams Super Stars (Age Considered,plus teams historic connection to player) Untouchable.
Sure you can change it or force,but at the Very Least your reminded it should be a No-No
No trading a Mantle-Williams-Campy,Etc. To you OR any other A.I. Team.
Gil The Ancient One

[mking55]

Originally Posted by golander40

I simply go over each teams roster,and make the teams Super Stars (Age Considered,plus teams historic connection to player) Untouchable.
Sure you can change it or force,but at the Very Least your reminded it should be a No-No
No trading a Mantle-Williams-Campy,Etc. To you OR any other A.I. Team.
Gil The Ancient One

Sorry Gil, I'm not look for suggestions or work-arounds. I just want to be able to play the game as written and to have it challenging. I shouldn't have to make it challenging by imposing rules upon myself.

(Please refer to the opening line of my post).

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by mking55

I have the league I created with OOTP 11 set to the hardest trading difficulty. I started my league in 1939 with the Philadelphia A's (a very weak team). I have now progressed to the 1962 season. Through trades, which I love to do, I have won every pennant since 1941.

My team's overall record in this league is 2588-962. That's crazy.

I think you should really try a fictional league to see if you can duplicate that kind of success. Because that comparison in your general manager performance will be very instructive.

If you are unable to duplicate that level of success in a fictional league with fictional players, then that points to the problem being less about the general trading AI in historical leagues and more about your ability to exploit the name recognition advantage you have over the AI. You have an edge, and you simply use that edge to its maximum advantage and to the best of your abilities.

If on the other hand you can duplicate that level of success even in an environment where you have no built-in edge over the AI, where you and the AI are on even terms when it comes to recognizing players, then you have a knack for finding every weakness in your opponent and using that weakness to your benefit. In which case your observations on how you achieve that will be very useful in making a better overall trading AI which makes both fictional and historical play much better.

[mking55]

1963 is in the books. I'm getting close to an undefeated season and it's all due to trading. Needless to say, I'm the Athletics.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think you should really try a fictional league to see if you can duplicate that kind of success. Because that comparison in your general manager performance will be very instructive.

If you are unable to duplicate that level of success in a fictional league with fictional players, then that points to the problem being less about the general trading AI in historical leagues and more about your ability to exploit the name recognition advantage you have over the AI. You have an edge, and you simply use that edge to its maximum advantage and to the best of your abilities.

If on the other hand you can duplicate that level of success even in an environment where you have no built-in edge over the AI, where you and the AI are on even terms when it comes to recognizing players, then you have a knack for finding every weakness in your opponent and using that weakness to your benefit. In which case your observations on how you achieve that will be very useful in making a better overall trading AI which makes both fictional and historical play much better.

As I've said many times, I'm not interested in fictional play. Running a fictional league (and I've tried it), bores me to tears.

My whole point is that the historical trading module is weak and it's flawed. I am hoping others comment to the same effect. I am hoping that I get a reply from Markus to my offer to help make a better historical trading module.

The fictional players, if they aren't happy with the trading in it, are free to post their own issues. I'm only concerned with historical play and I believe the trading in it can be made better.

[MizzouRah]

Philly is on a nice run as well.