Largest universe created?

His Own Bad Self · 09-06-2007, 07:07 AM

Just wondering if anyone's created any worlds/universes containing more than just a couple hundred teams. I've spent the last couple of months trying to create one that's going to have over 2,000 teams, perhaps as many as 2,500. I have no idea if it will work within my PC's memory capabilities, but it's worth a try. Has anyone out there built anything that large?

Tony M · 09-06-2007, 08:30 AM

I can tell you now that unless you have the world's greatest supercomputer you'll never get a 2 sub-league, 50 divisions of 50 teams each subleague to work.

Because when you create a league either in advanced or wizard, every time you change the structure (number of sub-leagues, divisions or teams in division) the teams that were there before the change become marked as 'invisible' and a whole new set are created.

A quick bit of dirty maths, using the wizard to set up a 2x50x50 league would end up with around 270,000 teams in the database of which only 5000 would be live. Thankfully then adding minors to it would only add 5000 teams per level because it uses the parent structure.

I got around to setting about 15 divisions to 50 teams in a 2x50x50 league and the remaining 85 had 4 teams. My teams.dat file had over 10,000 teams in it by that point.

Each team record occupies at least 9,000 bytes (9Kb), so you'd be looking at a teams.dat file of at least 2.25Gb

Which would explain why my machine was grinding to a halt for every extra division I made to size 50. It took about 1.5 minutes to add the 15th division and I only had 1/27th of the number of teams I'd end up with.

This is a problem with the database structure, and hopefully a few of my suggestions will get taken onboard for 2007.

Tony M · 09-06-2007, 09:00 AM

Actually I think you can do it through a long sequence of expansions before you finish the first preseason, however that presents a bug...

darkcloud4579 · 09-06-2007, 12:16 PM

I routinely run leagues from 30-40 teams. I've run leagues with more. But a lot of teams can be difficult to follow, so unless it's just a giggles test to see what the can do before it explodes...I dunno the point.

His Own Bad Self · 09-06-2007, 06:29 PM

Well, the point's just to have as big, and as global in scope, a universe as possible. (One specific goal is to have at least one league in each country that doesn't have a "baseball level" of "nonexistent". Which takes overkill to another level, entirely, but if it can work...)

I have built a working universe with over 500 teams in roughly 25 different leagues (anywhere from 8 to 48 teams per league). But that starts to push things - it takes a few seconds for the game to create a new league once a couple dozen are already in the mix.

lt2cents · 09-07-2007, 03:45 PM

Have been working on and off for a couple months to create a circa 1940/50 league setup that may have about 60/70 leagues (major, minor, and independents) averaging maybe 8 teams. About 500 teams or so. My PC seems too wimpy to handle this well. Its somewhat slow, and crashes, although not prohibitively often. I could invest in an upgraded PC at some point (mostly memory I think) and solve most of this probably.

The more serious problem that I see is that OOTP is not yet ready to model this world well. It lacks some features (several posted to the suggestions forum) that would make the outcome of this project much more valuable in terms of enjoyability. By the way, the tigerfan1930 quickstart originally made for the 2006 program is the inspiration for this.

enuttage · 09-08-2007, 03:53 PM

I got curious about this and played around a bit with it last night and this morning.

I had a 2 sub-league, 13 division (each) setup, with 124 teams and three levels of minors that was taking ~2 hours to sim (did the first season overnight - second season was ~2 hours).

Statistics setting was on 'Normal', player photos on-demand, all leagues.

So I guess larger leagues are doable, but they ain't fast.

Wolfbane · 09-10-2007, 04:48 PM

I have managed to create a league with about 800 teams that ran smoothly enough for 25 years. The only real problem occurred when I tried bringing up league history. This, however, was done on my custom built computer and it still managed to swallow up all 3 gigs of memory I had with nothing else running. The game would freeze completely if I attempted to do anything else while simulating. Good luck with your attempt though.

Neags23 · 09-10-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsoxford

Because when you create a league either in advanced or wizard, every time you change the structure (number of sub-leagues, divisions or teams in division) the teams that were there before the change become marked as 'invisible' and a whole new set are created.

....

This is a problem with the database structure, and hopefully a few of my suggestions will get taken onboard for 2007.

I had an idea of "re-seeding" teams in their divisions based on prior year results. The 5 teams with the best records get realigned to the same division, 5 teams with the worst records get realigned to the same division, etc.

Your saying, though, that this will expand the database structure until it's likely to pop (i.e. game crash, computer freeze, too slow to play)?

If so, that is a terrible limitation to the database structure.

LunaticFringe82 · 09-11-2007, 12:28 PM

On my 512MB laptop, I tried a league with 256 teams and while it worked, it was like pulling teeth to simulate. Each day took an eternity.

I re-invented the league at 64 teams and it works like a charm!

It's now 2 sub leagues of 8-divisions of 4 teams each. The regular season is only 62 games and 32 of the 64 teams make the playoffs, where each round is a best of 9. Therefore, you could end up playing 45 postseason games.

Oh... and I ramped up the offense (multipliers at 1.4) so most games are 12-11 or similar.

And you can't play past 32 years old.

spark240 · 09-12-2007, 04:37 PM

I think I decided the MFV (marginal fun value) of an ever larger and more detailed world dropped off as I began to approach 400 teams (33 leagues).

jg2977 · 09-12-2007, 09:21 PM

Right now I have an NCAA-style universe going, consisting of teams from the six BCS conferences, plus a few others like Boise State and Gonzaga. It adds up to 74 teams. No minor league, 162 game season. It's still running successfully in its 17th season. Since I'm not having any problems, I'm thinking of expanding it to about 100 teams in the near future.

I also have leagues based on the four major pro sports. I've expanded the NHL to 44 teams (!) with one minor league, and that's in its 97th season. For the NFL I have a 16-game short season that's completed 221 seasons! Soon I'm going to add the 8 CFL teams to it, so that will run up the number of teams to 40. For the NBA and MLB, I just kept the exact same teams, and those two leagues have been running for roughly 130 years with no troubles.

I'm afraid of expanding any league past 100 teams, because I think the simulating would take much too long, and also take up too much memory in my computer. I do make backups of my leagues every season, just in case it crashes.

Since the NFL's league has such a short season, I may be able to reach 1000!

rem · 09-12-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jg2977

Right now I have an NCAA-style universe going, consisting of teams from the six BCS conferences, plus a few others like Boise State and Gonzaga. It adds up to 74 teams. No minor league, 162 game season. It's still running successfully in its 17th season. Since I'm not having any problems, I'm thinking of expanding it to about 100 teams in the near future.

I also have leagues based on the four major pro sports. I've expanded the NHL to 44 teams (!) with one minor league, and that's in its 97th season. For the NFL I have a 16-game short season that's completed 221 seasons! Soon I'm going to add the 8 CFL teams to it, so that will run up the number of teams to 40. For the NBA and MLB, I just kept the exact same teams, and those two leagues have been running for roughly 130 years with no troubles.

I'm afraid of expanding any league past 100 teams, because I think the simulating would take much too long, and also take up too much memory in my computer. I do make backups of my leagues every season, just in case it crashes.

Since the NFL's league has such a short season, I may be able to reach 1000!

Post computer stats, plz.

09-06-2007, 07:07 AM	#1
His Own Bad Self All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,221	Largest universe created? Just wondering if anyone's created any worlds/universes containing more than just a couple hundred teams. I've spent the last couple of months trying to create one that's going to have over 2,000 teams, perhaps as many as 2,500. I have no idea if it will work within my PC's memory capabilities, but it's worth a try. Has anyone out there built anything that large?

09-06-2007, 08:30 AM	#2
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	I can tell you now that unless you have the world's greatest supercomputer you'll never get a 2 sub-league, 50 divisions of 50 teams each subleague to work. Because when you create a league either in advanced or wizard, every time you change the structure (number of sub-leagues, divisions or teams in division) the teams that were there before the change become marked as 'invisible' and a whole new set are created. A quick bit of dirty maths, using the wizard to set up a 2x50x50 league would end up with around 270,000 teams in the database of which only 5000 would be live. Thankfully then adding minors to it would only add 5000 teams per level because it uses the parent structure. I got around to setting about 15 divisions to 50 teams in a 2x50x50 league and the remaining 85 had 4 teams. My teams.dat file had over 10,000 teams in it by that point. Each team record occupies at least 9,000 bytes (9Kb), so you'd be looking at a teams.dat file of at least 2.25Gb Which would explain why my machine was grinding to a halt for every extra division I made to size 50. It took about 1.5 minutes to add the 15th division and I only had 1/27th of the number of teams I'd end up with. This is a problem with the database structure, and hopefully a few of my suggestions will get taken onboard for 2007. __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

09-06-2007, 09:00 AM	#3
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	Actually I think you can do it through a long sequence of expansions before you finish the first preseason, however that presents a bug... __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

09-06-2007, 12:16 PM	#4
darkcloud4579 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 8,688	I routinely run leagues from 30-40 teams. I've run leagues with more. But a lot of teams can be difficult to follow, so unless it's just a giggles test to see what the can do before it explodes...I dunno the point. __________________ ------ My Mods OOTP Advanced Stats & DFS Suite Managerial Strategy Pack Competitive Balance Tax Calculator Major League Women's Baseball (OOTP24) quickstart Indian Premier League \| 300+ years of baseball quickstart \| Expatriate League quickstart \| Off-Field Injuries Update \| Women's Name File for OOTP \| ---- Dynasty classics: Centurion comes to OOTP5 \| DC Moneyball Dynasty (2004)

09-08-2007, 03:53 PM	#7
enuttage Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hill Country Posts: 2,428	I got curious about this and played around a bit with it last night and this morning. I had a 2 sub-league, 13 division (each) setup, with 124 teams and three levels of minors that was taking ~2 hours to sim (did the first season overnight - second season was ~2 hours). Statistics setting was on 'Normal', player photos on-demand, all leagues. So I guess larger leagues are doable, but they ain't fast. __________________ The former GM of the WHBL Managua Four Roses *"The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them."*

09-06-2007, 06:29 PM	#5
His Own Bad Self All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,221	Well, the point's just to have as big, and as global in scope, a universe as possible. (One specific goal is to have at least one league in each country that doesn't have a "baseball level" of "nonexistent". Which takes overkill to another level, entirely, but if it can work...) I have built a working universe with over 500 teams in roughly 25 different leagues (anywhere from 8 to 48 teams per league). But that starts to push things - it takes a few seconds for the game to create a new league once a couple dozen are already in the mix.

09-07-2007, 03:45 PM	#6
lt2cents Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 212	Have been working on and off for a couple months to create a circa 1940/50 league setup that may have about 60/70 leagues (major, minor, and independents) averaging maybe 8 teams. About 500 teams or so. My PC seems too wimpy to handle this well. Its somewhat slow, and crashes, although not prohibitively often. I could invest in an upgraded PC at some point (mostly memory I think) and solve most of this probably. The more serious problem that I see is that OOTP is not yet ready to model this world well. It lacks some features (several posted to the suggestions forum) that would make the outcome of this project much more valuable in terms of enjoyability. By the way, the tigerfan1930 quickstart originally made for the 2006 program is the inspiration for this.

09-10-2007, 04:48 PM	#8
Wolfbane Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 30	I have managed to create a league with about 800 teams that ran smoothly enough for 25 years. The only real problem occurred when I tried bringing up league history. This, however, was done on my custom built computer and it still managed to swallow up all 3 gigs of memory I had with nothing else running. The game would freeze completely if I attempted to do anything else while simulating. Good luck with your attempt though.

09-11-2007, 12:28 PM	#10
LunaticFringe82 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31	On my 512MB laptop, I tried a league with 256 teams and while it worked, it was like pulling teeth to simulate. Each day took an eternity. I re-invented the league at 64 teams and it works like a charm! It's now 2 sub leagues of 8-divisions of 4 teams each. The regular season is only 62 games and 32 of the 64 teams make the playoffs, where each round is a best of 9. Therefore, you could end up playing 45 postseason games. Oh... and I ramped up the offense (multipliers at 1.4) so most games are 12-11 or similar. And you can't play past 32 years old. Last edited by LunaticFringe82; 09-11-2007 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Additional detail.

09-12-2007, 04:37 PM	#11
spark240 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Highest county in the Virginia hills Posts: 637	I think I decided the MFV (marginal fun value) of an ever larger and more detailed world dropped off as I began to approach 400 teams (33 leagues).

09-12-2007, 09:21 PM	#12
jg2977 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 25,001	Right now I have an NCAA-style universe going, consisting of teams from the six BCS conferences, plus a few others like Boise State and Gonzaga. It adds up to 74 teams. No minor league, 162 game season. It's still running successfully in its 17th season. Since I'm not having any problems, I'm thinking of expanding it to about 100 teams in the near future. I also have leagues based on the four major pro sports. I've expanded the NHL to 44 teams (!) with one minor league, and that's in its 97th season. For the NFL I have a 16-game short season that's completed 221 seasons! Soon I'm going to add the 8 CFL teams to it, so that will run up the number of teams to 40. For the NBA and MLB, I just kept the exact same teams, and those two leagues have been running for roughly 130 years with no troubles. I'm afraid of expanding any league past 100 teams, because I think the simulating would take much too long, and also take up too much memory in my computer. I do make backups of my leagues every season, just in case it crashes. Since the NFL's league has such a short season, I may be able to reach 1000!