Bronze Tournament Roster Meta

[the doctor]

not so much a question as just a rant/complaint because I'm just feeling so discouraged by how last year's version is repeating itself...

something is fundamentally wrong with core game systems in tournament play if the most viable strategy is "use these exact 26 cards and then coin flip your roster against 31 other people doing the same thing". the fact that experimentation, originality, and discovery are so discouraged by this system is just a real bummer. it was the same deal last year in bronze except the meta was "build this exact roster of groundballers and excellent fielders" and now it's just "build this exact roster of home run hitters".

as an aside, i know it's been mentioned before, but man something seems wrong with the offensive environment in the bronze tournaments... effectively impossible for any pitcher to have even moderate success. pretty much every pitcher is constantly hovering around 3HR/9 because of the power meta that is in command right now.

alright, rant over.

[Warfsu]

Originally Posted by the doctor

not so much a question as just a rant/complaint because I'm just feeling so discouraged by how last year's version is repeating itself...

something is fundamentally wrong with core game systems in tournament play if the most viable strategy is "use these exact 26 cards and then coin flip your roster against 31 other people doing the same thing". the fact that experimentation, originality, and discovery are so discouraged by this system is just a real bummer. it was the same deal last year in bronze except the meta was "build this exact roster of groundballers and excellent fielders" and now it's just "build this exact roster of home run hitters".

as an aside, i know it's been mentioned before, but man something seems wrong with the offensive environment in the bronze tournaments... effectively impossible for any pitcher to have even moderate success. pretty much every pitcher is constantly hovering around 3HR/9 because of the power meta that is in command right now.

alright, rant over.

Haven’t played much bronze tournaments yet determine if the same rosters are being used. I did this “strategy” last year. Tried it again in Iron, this year, and found that rosters are more varied.

Pitching is a joke. While I haven’t found a recipe that keeps scoring down, I’ve had success utilizing a different strategy that I don’t normally use. Maybe this is the version of game the producers want, and it’s up to us to figure out how to beat our opponents at it.

[Kushiel]

Hitting has been overshadowed in every release so far.

It's time to score some runs. Some pitchers in Bronze are much more successful than others. Almost every pitcher last year was a groundballer with many extreme groundballers. The pendulum swings. Just like real life.

[jeffstified]

Success is relative. The top pitchers are successful. They just have awful looking numbers relative to real life.

And, to your large point, yeah, I agree. But, how would you fix it? I can't think of a way. Other collection based games have the same problem, so they can't either.

[the doctor]

Originally Posted by jeffstified

Success is relative. The top pitchers are successful. They just have awful looking numbers relative to real life.

And, to your large point, yeah, I agree. But, how would you fix it? I can't think of a way. Other collection based games have the same problem, so they can't either.

yeah, i genuinely don't know. i tend to avoid this sort of game for this exact reason, but PT is a nice daily distraction in between sims for my online leagues.

i'm sure someone lots smarter than me has thought about this and apparently also doesn't have an answer (or, more likely, doesn't care enough to try and come up with one). the ideas I've had in the past would be things like identifying the "mandatory" tournament cards and restricting how many of them you're allowed to have on your roster (kind of like the overall point cap tournaments) or a recurring cycle of "deactivating" or otherwise removing cards from tournament play/eligibility so that players are forced to actually update their rosters with some regularity and not just when the next new "mandatory" card drops.

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by the doctor

recurring cycle of "deactivating" or otherwise removing cards from tournament play/eligibility so that players are forced to actually update their rosters with some regularity and not just when the next new "mandatory" card drops.

Literally what the yearly releases of OOTP are.


Other card games like Magic or Pokemon have tournament formats (Open, Standard, Legacy, etc.) that dictate what cards you can and cannot use for those tournaments because they've been releasing cards for a very long time under the same game.

OOTP is a yearly thing, there's no reason to drop cards out.

[the doctor]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

Literally what the yearly releases of OOTP are.


Other card games like Magic or Pokemon have tournament formats (Open, Standard, Legacy, etc.) that dictate what cards you can and cannot use for those tournaments because they've been releasing cards for a very long time under the same game.

OOTP is a yearly thing, there's no reason to drop cards out.

there is if you think that "everyone using the exact same roster" is a problem - it sounds like you don't, which is fine. i would disagree with you.

i simply don't find it interesting to play what's functionally an identical opponent in every single tournament and round.

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by the doctor

there is if you think that "everyone using the exact same roster" is a problem - it sounds like you don't, which is fine. i would disagree with you.

i simply don't find it interesting to play what's functionally an identical opponent in every single tournament and round.

I do think it's a problem, that's why I don't play bronze or iron tournaments much. The answer isn't to drop cards out, it's to better spread out the distribution of attributes in conjunction with engine work.

[the doctor]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

I do think it's a problem, that's why I don't play bronze or iron tournaments much.

haha, well then i wish there was some way i could give you a thumbs up on your post!

I'd be curious if you have any ideas (wild or otherwise) of how something like this could be addressed. maybe there actually isn't a solution, i don't know! but the reason i brought it up (other than to complain, because complaining is fun) is because I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts about how this sort of thing could be prevented in the future.

[professor ape]

I don’t know how you combat this. People are playing thousands of tournaments with many of us are collecting and analyzing the data. Certain players are going to rise to the top and those who are paying attention will use them. You quickly reach a point where people who don’t pour over spreadsheets can see clear trends in the players on the teams that are winning. The meta takes over because deviating from it significantly will mean that you are putting out a weaker team.

[Kushiel]

Adding to what the Professor stated, this is where sliders matter.

[the doctor]

Originally Posted by professor ape

I don’t know how you combat this. People are playing thousands of tournaments with many of us are collecting and analyzing the data. Certain players are going to rise to the top and those who are paying attention will use them. You quickly reach a point where people who don’t pour over spreadsheets can see clear trends in the players on the teams that are winning. The meta takes over because deviating from it significantly will mean that you are putting out a weaker team.

absolutely.

yeah, maybe i'm trying to fight the wind here and there isn't any real solution to this.

just feels counter to the whole point of actual playing the game, when it so quickly (we're like only two weeks into this and it's already "this is the team you need to have, none of the other cards even slightly matter) gets dialed down to what feels like "competing" against thousands of other people using the same generic black box where you're just waiting for it to spit out a win/loss result.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Adding to what the Professor stated, this is where sliders matter.

I need to get better at setting player strategies. I have what I feel is a good global strategy but there is only so much that I can tinker with without feeling that I’m screwing things up. Any general thoughts on sliders that you are willing to share?

[ubernoob]

Put in higher control pitchers and turn up pitch around if you're giving up too many home runs?

Look at the catcher arms and see if you can steal more? Is everyone pulling the ball, should you be shifting more? Do you have range for your fielders to cover not shifting? Are the opponents stealing and you need to work on holding the runners?

There's a lot that can be done (the effectiveness of each may TBD), isn't that the beauty of baseball? Can't just give too much baseline advice though, outside of needing to analyze both your team and the competition. Other than "Strikeouts bad, contact/power/walks good, high numbers good."

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

Put in higher control pitchers and turn up pitch around if you're giving up too many home runs?

Look at the catcher arms and see if you can steal more? Is everyone pulling the ball, should you be shifting more? Do you have range for your fielders to cover not shifting? Are the opponents stealing and you need to work on holding the runners?

There's a lot that can be done (the effectiveness of each may TBD), isn't that the beauty of baseball? Can't just give too much baseline advice though, outside of needing to analyze both your team and the competition. Other than "Strikeouts bad, contact/power/walks good, high numbers good."

If only I had the time to analyze each opponent.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by the doctor

absolutely.

yeah, maybe i'm trying to fight the wind here and there isn't any real solution to this.

How about fog of war?

You can only see the ratings and names of your own cards. Every other card has a fictional name with no visible ratings. Card ID cannot be downloaded so data download and analysis is impossible. In the card shop real names and ratings can be seen.

[azapaches]

this is not baseball fix the pitching

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by professor ape

If only I had the time to analyze each opponent.

Well it sounds like you don't need to since everyone uses the same team?

[LeeD]

Originally Posted by azapaches

this is not baseball fix the pitching

Exactly. It's beyond ridiculous to have any and all starting pitchers with ERAs above 9, and my team is still winning lots of games (by scores of 14-11). Slider set to quickest hook so that they only give up two or three runs before departing for the showers, and I'm carrying 14 pitchers to avoid bullpen burnout in the final round. It seems as though the pitcher movement rating has been disabled.

[LeeD]

Here's my latest tournament team screen. 4-0 so far despite surrendering 33 runs with a starter ERA of 9.72. Yes, it's an Iron tournament, but things aren't any different at that level.