Panel Discussion - Visual Representation

[Cap]

Everyone is invited to chip in their views on this subject. It's wide open.

Seems to me, and I could be dead wrong, that budgetary constraints on this game allow for very little wiggle room as far as improved "animations" are concerned. [Paul, feel free to jump in] What we have now is quite likely the most we can hope for regarding visual representation of the actual boxers in the ring. So, if the notion of having colour-correct boxer animations is too much of a stretch, where does that leave us? What options do we have for visual representation in future versions?

One option often mentioned is a simple animation showing movement in the ring, possibly with a pop-up now and then of the ref or even cornermen. Maybe a graphic showing a fighter down.

This is a popular idea with many of our more "seasoned" members, but doesn't seem likely to attract much-needed new players, the life-blood of any franchise. We need some sort of fighter-graphic.

Another proposal was having the animated boxers displayed as though the gamer was sitting in the cheap seats viewing at a slight downward angle from a distance so the two combatants in the ring are just enough in shadow to be hard to distinguish. Perhaps if the figures are smaller it might even be possible to have each colour-correct or at least different shades of grey. Possibly less demand on the artist?

A third idea floated was having the animation screen replaced with a static graphic of the arena or a radio flanked on either side by pics of the fighters, and a larger commentary window. Again, perhaps not likely to bring in new buyers unless we could have voiced commentary.

I'm sure there are other ideas out there. Here's your chance to use your imagination and help Paul improve this great game.

Cap

[Hanson Bros]

This has always been one aspect of the game I could care less about ... I pay little to no attention to the ring when running a fight (mostly because I have the commentary at full-speed) ... it would be nice if the color of the fighter matched but it really doesn't matter to me at all ...

I do agree that it will be a bone of contention for new players though

[Sirius]

When using 2.5, i have removed the animation (Boxers) and have replaced them with actual boxing action photos, including an overview of a boxing ring. When a fighter lands a punch, i have photos that pop up of actual fighters landing punches, representing each side of the screen. (Fighter A Fighter B) .. It's not perfect but it gives a real cool effect, especially when you hear the audio of the punch landing simultaneously with the photos.

[meade95]

I still to this day have not found out why this went backwards in development - This game having come from the Trunzo Brothers.

THe old TF-99 had a top down view of the ring. With correct colored animated fighters. Figthers who moved around the ring no less! Who when one fighter was in the counter and being pressed the commentery went right along with this. It was excellent!

Biggest backwards step this fight sim took is when it moved away from this. And since not only doesn't have the animation of fighters moving around the ring but has never got the correct colors of fighters right again......

[pilight]

Originally Posted by meade95

THe old TF-99 had a top down view of the ring. With correct colored animated fighters. Figthers who moved around the ring no less! Who when one fighter was in the counter and being pressed the commentery went right along with this. It was excellent!

The only downside was that occasionally Rocky Marciano would be blonde.

[Cap]

The question is, in this time of highly detailed game animation sometimes making it difficult to tell fake from real, would newcomers be interested in animation from the 1980s? What suits us old timers won't offer much appeal to newcomers and the game maker needs their dollars.

I would really be interested to know what the limitations are on the possible visual representation of the boxers in the ring. Maybe Aurelio Barrios or Paul himself will provide some enlightenment on the subject?

As it stands now, having one fighter represented by a white avatar when he is not white really appears amateurish to everyone. If that can't be amended then another more subtle way needs to be found.

Cap

[pisdpaul]

First, you can make the players move around the ring by enabling the move cookie... Type "move" on the fight screen to enable this feature which will remain active until you disable it. I defaulted this feature to off because I thought it was rather tacky, however it appears I was wrong as most people tell me it enhances the fight page.

The skin colour issue has been discussed a number of times. It all boils down to the number of image frames and the time to create them. The code is rather simple its a matter of creating the images.

[Bogie]

Cap is right (as usual) for this game to appeal to the young graphic demanding youth, it would need to be upgraded with a lot more eye candy. Problem is this game is never going to be a big sell with those types because they are willing to give up realism for graphics. We are all about realism here! With that said, coordinated color for each fighter would be pretty cool! Just my opinion!!!

[Cap]

Originally Posted by pisdpaul

First, you can make the players move around the ring by enabling the move cookie... Type "move" on the fight screen to enable this feature which will remain active until you disable it. I defaulted this feature to off because I thought it was rather tacky, however it appears I was wrong as most people tell me it enhances the fight page.

The skin colour issue has been discussed a number of times. It all boils down to the number of image frames and the time to create them. The code is rather simple its a matter of creating the images.

So what will it take to expedite this simple matter of creating the missing images?

Cap

[northtexas]

We had this same discussion back in 2006 and some of us were called racists by one of the posters because we supported the idea of having color correct fighters......hopefully it will be more civilized this time around. Here's the thread link if anyone cares to read it:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-graphics.html

[pisdpaul]

Originally Posted by northtexas

We had this same discussion back in 2006 and some of us were called racists by one of the posters because we supported the idea of having color correct fighters......hopefully it will be more civilized this time around. Here's the thread link if anyone cares to read it:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-graphics.html

The world has got to the point where I think twice about using the word black in an everyday context, "The book over there with the black cover..". Its rather absurd that I should even think that sentence might be racist, however I still do...

I have not seen that post before (its before my time) but its interesting to read as Jim says the same as me...

Good(ish) news... A growing number of you guys have asked for this and I have listened. I have added basic skin support using gimp (photoshop like program, but free) to create black vs white, white vs white and black vs black... These are not perfect as I am not a graphics artists.. there are two notable issues tho. First, the w-w and b-b fighters are wearing the same colour shorts, coz I just used copy/paste. Second, other skin types such as hispanic use the black fighter for now. It takes a lot of time to create the images (I still have a few left). Hopefully someone else can follow my lead and create the rest in time...

However its a start!

[Cap]

One stupid question, Paul. How does the game choose colours? How does it know that Marciano, on the right, is white...er...caucasian?

Cap

[stevebydac]

Originally Posted by Cap

Another proposal was having the animated boxers displayed as though the gamer was sitting in the cheap seats viewing at a slight downward angle from a distance so the two combatants in the ring are just enough in shadow to be hard to distinguish. Perhaps if the figures are smaller it might even be possible to have each colour-correct or at least different shades of grey. Possibly less demand on the artist?

Following up on your quote... show the crowd getting excited, standing, raising arms when there is a big happening like a knockout or knockdown, or referee having a doc check a cut, or perhaps if the fight is close in the final round..




Or, put the focus on the announcing team instead of the fighters. Maybe a shadowy view like this, perhaps from a row behind the ringside commentators, so that we "see" them announcing the fight as we read their commentary? We'd see the backs of the three announcers wearing their headsets, looking up at the ring. The backs of the commentators are more in focus than the fighters in the background, who are moving in the smoky, dimly lit shadows. The announcers could move slightly in their seats as they talk to each other. Maybe the scene is in black and white, so the "colors" of the people are irrelevant? Make it look old-school.

[pisdpaul]

Originally Posted by Cap

One stupid question, Paul. How does the game choose colours? How does it know that Marciano, on the right, is white...er...caucasian?

Cap

It uses the skin colour setting on the fighter profile page. If this is not set I default to white. So if a fighter is showing up incorrectly check the skin colour setting for your fighter..

[Cap]

Excellent. Looking forward to this improvement. Should satisfy the colour-correct fighters faction.

Now if we could just make the fighters' pics larger........

Cap

[Cap]

Originally Posted by stevebydac

Following up on your quote... show the crowd getting excited, standing, raising arms when there is a big happening like a knockout or knockdown, or referee having a doc check a cut, or perhaps if the fight is close in the final round..

Or, put the focus on the announcing team instead of the fighters. Maybe a shadowy view like this, perhaps from a row behind the ringside commentators, so that we "see" them announcing the fight as we read their commentary? We'd see the backs of the three announcers wearing their headsets, looking up at the ring. The backs of the commentators are more in focus than the fighters in the background, who are moving in the smoky, dimly lit shadows. The announcers could move slightly in their seats as they talk to each other. Maybe the scene is in black and white, so the "colors" of the people are irrelevant? Make it look old-school.

Good stuff! Maybe we could zoom in just a bit more, maybe half way between your view in the nosebleeds and the present rich folks at ringside. I recall the old Montreal Forum had nice seating for boxing; didn't matter where you were, you could see everything. My dad and I used to sit midway up so you looked at the ring at a slight downward angle [ringside always ended up giving me a stiff neck]. Far enough away so you couldn't really make out their faces, but you knew which guy was which. You'd never see all that empty space near ringside, there was just enough space to allow the boxers and their seconds to climb through the ropes.

Cap

[Mugsy]

I remember on the commodore 64 version the boxers would have different color trunks and gloves (the trunks and gloves were the same color). Surely if that could be accomplished back then it should be do-able on todays computers

[Bogie]

Originally Posted by Cap

Excellent. Looking forward to this improvement. Should satisfy the colour-correct fighters faction.

Now if we could just make the fighters' pics larger........

Cap

Me too!

[Cap]

Originally Posted by Mugsy

I remember on the commodore 64 version the boxers would have different color trunks and gloves (the trunks and gloves were the same color). Surely if that could be accomplished back then it should be do-able on todays computers

One guy could have black trunks and the other could have white. And every Friday they could switch....

Cap

[Star56]

Originally Posted by Sirius

When using 2.5, i have removed the animation (Boxers) and have replaced them with actual boxing action photos, including an overview of a boxing ring. When a fighter lands a punch, i have photos that pop up of actual fighters landing punches, representing each side of the screen. (Fighter A Fighter B) .. It's not perfect but it gives a real cool effect, especially when you hear the audio of the punch landing simultaneously with the photos.

Can this be done n 2.6 and how would one go about doing it?

Thanks!