Pitchers With Two Pitches

[Klew1986]

I know this has been brought up many times, but I just had the upcoming draft class revealed and there are a bunch of 4.5 and 5 star potential starting pitchers who only have two pitches and also I am noticing not many of them have a fastball. I am using college and high school feeder leagues. In the past I have gone in and edited to add pitches to some of them, but I was hoping to avoid that this time.

I'm just afraid that bullpens will become stacked when all these two pitch starters end up in the bullpen. Is there any other way to avoid this?

[chris686]

How many MR and CL are you seeing? Most of the stud looking guys I'm seeing in my draft are not fit for MLB starting positions, but they were apparently that in HS and college.

On the flip side, I'm not seeing a ton of stud MR or CL, but I'm just basing this on the one draft I'm currently looking at.

[Klew1986]

It's decent. But a bunch of the SP with only two pitches will be great pitchers and have great potential, however, since they only have two pitches, the A.I. will likely use them out of the bullpen. That will cause team bullpens to have a ton of 4-5 star pitchers. I just don't want it to ruin the league.

[Dr. dru]

Originally Posted by Klew1986

I know this has been brought up many times, but I just had the upcoming draft class revealed and there are a bunch of 4.5 and 5 star potential starting pitchers who only have two pitches and also I am noticing not many of them have a fastball. I am using college and high school feeder leagues. In the past I have gone in and edited to add pitches to some of them, but I was hoping to avoid that this time.

I'm just afraid that bullpens will become stacked when all these two pitch starters end up in the bullpen. Is there any other way to avoid this?

Yes this is annoying and needs to be addressed in my opinion. Especially when a guy has two pitches and one is a change up, but doesn't have a fastball but his speed is 99 MPH.

[OakDragon]

Remember that cutters and sinkers are types of fastballs. I've never seen a two-pitch pitcher in OOTP that didn't either have a straight fastball or one of those two others.

[Klew1986]

Okay. Regardless of the non-fastball, but having a ton of pitchers in the draft with only two pitches will ruin the league in the long run. I went through and edited a bunch of SPs in both feeder leagues. I don't want to have to do this every year though.

[Dr. dru]

Originally Posted by OakDragon

Remember that cutters and sinkers are types of fastballs. I've never seen a two-pitch pitcher in OOTP that didn't either have a straight fastball or one of those two others.

I thought I saw a guy with a forkball and changeup once with speed that toped out around 98 MPH. But I might be wrong about this.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Dr. dru

I thought I saw a guy with a forkball and changeup once with speed that toped out around 98 MPH. But I might be wrong about this.

The velocity represents what his speed would be if he threw a straight fastball, regardless of what pitches he actually throws.

[GrantDawg]

Interesting. Let me keep looking in further seasons, but I am not seeing it right now. Just started a league with feeders (60 college and 100 high school). Looking through the college starters, 85% of them have more than twp pitches, and even have bullpen guys that 4 or 5 pitches. High school it looks like 3 out 5 have multiple pitches, again with mr with stamina and multiple pitches as well. I'll see what the draft looks like.

It could be none of these 4-5 star multiple pitchers are going to stay highly ranked. Or maybe it is too easy for the two pitch guys to succeed. Too many people are saying the same thing about this to be wrong. But then, it might just be perspective. The number of top looking relievers always seem high, but many of them (at least from what I've seen) don't end up being as great as they look.

[ike121212]

2 pitch pitcher's and pitching development are popular topics. I was disappointed not to see any change in 12, when the player dev budget and minor league lock provided the opportunity to improve it. Curt Schilling said he edits his 2 pitch guys. Hopefully that's the incentive Markus needs to make some improvements in this area.

[GrantDawg]

Ok. Scouting off, just the five star listed starting pitchers, 12 out of 27 had two pitches. 4 out of the 18 four and half stars did. 24 four star, not a single one with only two pitches.

Sounds solid to me. The very top 8 when sorting by stars have two pitches, but then you go pretty far down before you get to the next two pitch guys. I think the AI might over rate two pitch guys, and under rate multiple pitch guys.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Ok. Scouting off, just the five star listed starting pitchers, 12 out of 27 had two pitches. 4 out of the 18 four and half stars did. 24 four star, not a single one with only two pitches.

Sounds solid to me. The very top 8 when sorting by stars have two pitches, but then you go pretty far down before you get to the next two pitch guys. I think the AI might over rate two pitch guys, and under rate multiple pitch guys.

I believe the AI rates 2 pitch starters as relievers.

[GrantDawg]

Ok, now here is the flip on this. I only have three five star MR's, 4 four and half stars, and seven 4 stars. I have two four star closers, two four and half stars, and 7 four stars. I think I can see where those two pitch starters are going to be needed considering you have 6 relievers to 5 starters per team.

Let's see what I get next season.

[szathkey]

Wouldn't a lot of those 2 pitch pitchers be sent to the minors to work on a pitch? When pitchers are in HS or college they typically rely on 1 or 2 pitches if they are truly dominant because they have an incentive to pile on counting stats. What happens to most of these guys after they've started for a few years in the minors? In the game, the AI will have them start down there. Just wondering if anyone has looked at the issue after these guys get drafted?

[GrantDawg]

The next season stats:

SP
37 five stars, 16 two pitches
20 four/half, 4 two pitches
20 four stars, 0 two pitches

MR
0 five stars
8 four/half stars
4 four stars

CL
2 Five stars
5 four/half stars
2 four stars

Again, it really isn't that the game is making too many two pitch guys (at least with feeders). It looks like it doesn't switch them to mr/cl in the draft. They won't become relievers really until they hit AA anyway. But I think the main problem seems to be perception more than fact.

[udbacker58]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Ok, now here is the flip on this. I only have three five star MR's, 4 four and half stars, and seven 4 stars. I have two four star closers, two four and half stars, and 7 four stars. I think I can see where those two pitch starters are going to be needed considering you have 6 relievers to 5 starters per team.

Let's see what I get next season.

I would argue that 25 set-up/closer caliber relievers (4-5 star MR/CL is definitely 8th/9th inning material) in a draft is too much, especially considering that a good number of the 2-pitch SPs will not develop a 3rd pitch and become relievers. Even if they didn't, you're talking about each team basically having a shot at grabbing a closer each and every draft. That has been my biggest bone of contention with the draft classes in 11/12, there are simply too many excellent relievers. In each draft, it seems that between relievers and starters that will clearly end up relievers, there are at least one potential closer per team. IRL, almost all of the high quality relievers were drafted as starters and either failed as a starter (usually average guys that end up in middle relief), had stuff that was significantly better out of the bullpen (2-pitch starters who can blow hitters away with their 2 pitches), or succumbed to injury and went to the bullpen to avoid wear and tear (many of these guys closer/set-up guys as well).

To me, there should only be a handful of good relief prospects in the draft class and the 2-pitch pitchers should learn a 3rd pitch with slightly more regularity. I say slightly because we don't want the majority of them getting a 3rd pitch, but there should be enough that you can actually draft a guy hoping he can learn another pitch. Right now, I pretty much avoid them unless I'm taking them as a reliever because I know it is rare that he'll get that 3rd pitch. This would mean that the 2-pitch pitchers who don't get that 3rd pitch would turn into the closers and set-up men, combining with the few pure relief prospects that were drafted.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by szathkey

Wouldn't a lot of those 2 pitch pitchers be sent to the minors to work on a pitch? When pitchers are in HS or college they typically rely on 1 or 2 pitches if they are truly dominant because they have an incentive to pile on counting stats. What happens to most of these guys after they've started for a few years in the minors? In the game, the AI will have them start down there. Just wondering if anyone has looked at the issue after these guys get drafted?

The popular complaint is that third pitches appear today out of thin air. They aren't tied to role, league level, pitching coaches, dev budgets, work ethic, intelligence, success or anything else. I'd like to think that most people want some way to attempt to develop one of these prospects as a starter and learn a third pitch.

In game, a strong 2 pitch guy (assuming adequate stam) is a starter in HS, College, and low minors. They project as relievers, and are rated and valued there for draft purpose. So, it's no surprise that most of the top relief prospects in feeder leagues will be listed as SP's in the draft pool.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by udbacker58

I would argue that 25 set-up/closer caliber relievers (4-5 star MR/CL is definitely 8th/9th inning material) in a draft is too much, especially considering that a good number of the 2-pitch SPs will not develop a 3rd pitch and become relievers. Even if they didn't, you're talking about each team basically having a shot at grabbing a closer each and every draft. That has been my biggest bone of contention with the draft classes in 11/12, there are simply too many excellent relievers. In each draft, it seems that between relievers and starters that will clearly end up relievers, there are at least one potential closer per team. IRL, almost all of the high quality relievers were drafted as starters and either failed as a starter (usually average guys that end up in middle relief), had stuff that was significantly better out of the bullpen (2-pitch starters who can blow hitters away with their 2 pitches), or succumbed to injury and went to the bullpen to avoid wear and tear (many of these guys closer/set-up guys as well).

To me, there should only be a handful of good relief prospects in the draft class and the 2-pitch pitchers should learn a 3rd pitch with slightly more regularity. I say slightly because we don't want the majority of them getting a 3rd pitch, but there should be enough that you can actually draft a guy hoping he can learn another pitch. Right now, I pretty much avoid them unless I'm taking them as a reliever because I know it is rare that he'll get that 3rd pitch. This would mean that the 2-pitch pitchers who don't get that 3rd pitch would turn into the closers and set-up men, combining with the few pure relief prospects that were drafted.

I know it does. And the AI does, too. None of those two pitch pitchers have gotten drafted in the first round of either draft. The computer recognizes that they are relievers, even if it didn't shift their labels to MR/CL. But it is not "under producing" starters (which seems to be the main bone of contention of most). It is producing the same number, or close to it, of starters to relievers of the same caliber. You may think that is too many, but I can see how programming is going to be limited to set that up to make sure there is a balance in the game. The flip would be way too many great starters, and that is not very real either.

[moore4807]

What i seem to have noticed is when I have a 5 star pitcher, I draft them and magically they become a 3 to 3 1/2 star reliever when I change them to MR/CL. I also notice after simming 5 yrs NOT ONE of my 5 star draftees stayed at 5 stars (both position players and pitchers) after 5 years. Either I'm the WORST drafting GM ever to play this game...LOL Don't Say It!!! The best I've done is now a 4 star 50+ homer 3B who has 30 errors a year, never plays more than 140 gms, and asks for mega-money and never signs more than a 2 year deal. (He's currently signed for two yrs at 15.5M per, and my reserve IF plays superior defense at 3rd,SS, & 2nd...) So has anyone else seen a 5 star 2 pitch pitcher make the majors at 5 stars?

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by udbacker58

To me, there should only be a handful of good relief prospects in the draft class and the 2-pitch pitchers should learn a 3rd pitch with slightly more regularity. I say slightly because we don't want the majority of them getting a 3rd pitch, but there should be enough that you can actually draft a guy hoping he can learn another pitch.

Good post. I take a slightly different angle on how to get there though.

I was a college catcher. Every pitcher on our staff threw 3+ pitches. I've always had a tough time with the idea that a pitcher who gets drafted doesn't have a third pitch, or potential for a third pitch, that doesn't rate on a 1-255 scale. Sure, new pitches can be learned through a variety of means, but doesn't that mean they always had the potential??? Why is a third pitch so much different than every other skill? Why does a light hitting HS SS project to hit for power, but a power pitcher doesn't project to be capable of throwing a change up?

In my book, almost every pitcher in the draft pool should have the potential to throw 3 pitches, even if the third is bad. The development of that third pitch should be less certain and influenced by many things, most of all their use in the minors.

The glass half empty approach towards prospects, and the steady march towards potential, has always been a thorn in my side. Sorry for the rant! If there was 1 thing I could fix in the game, this is it!