Waivers with No Service Times

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I still need someone to explain this to me. Sometimes the simple escapes me, and maybe it's there. But I have a league with NO Service Times. All players start with a clean slate. Whether in ST or in season, players with or without major league contracts end up on waivers when being sent to the minor league levels.

I understand, I think correctly, that a player with a major league contract would clear waivers IF he's also being removed from the 40-man, but he's not. He's simply being sent to the minors with - given no service time - I would think, no right of refusal.

Wrong? Something fishy? Probably unimportant to the mainstream? Just let me know. When it's been brought up or PM'd about in the past, I've never received any definitive position or answer. Thanks in advance.

[Nutlaw]

Yeah, the players aren't passing through waivers because of service time. They are probably going through waivers because they are out of minor league option years. These will be listed under Player Profile -> Contract & Status -> Roster Status Information. If someone is listed as being "Out of option years", they must pass through waivers before being demoted.

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Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Yeah, the players aren't passing through waivers because of service time. They are probably going through waivers because they are out of minor league option years. These will be listed under Player Profile -> Contract & Status -> Roster Status Information. If someone is listed as being "Out of option years", they must pass through waivers before being demoted.

I should have been more clear. This is a clean slate league. No Service Times = All options remaining. If you take a league and clear service times it sets all players to 3 years options as a result. I understand your point if that were the case, but a No Service Time infers All Options Remaining. I do, however, thank you for your response. I think you were the only one who tried another time I had brought this issue up. Unfortunately, the response was the same one. Options, I think, ARE the issue. At least part of it: they're not being seen in this setting. In addition, no one has enough service time to refuse the assignment, so if it is being acknowledged, it is being treated incorrectly. The only circumstance in which I comprehend waivers being appropriate is being removed from the 40 Man while possessing a MajLeague contract. I may be wrong in this. And certainly, I don't understand why it would happen in ST.

Thanks. I remain optimistic this will someday be addressed or rightly explained. But I'm not betting the mortgage on it.

[Nutlaw]

If you aren't seeing option years, then you have the Minor League Options box unchecked in the league setup?

I don't believe that Spring Training gets much in the way of special consideration for roster moves, other than the expanded main roster.

When you say that demoted players "end up on waivers", are you referring to AI controlled teams or a player controlled team? If the latter, are you given a popup window warning you that they need to be placed on waivers in order to demote them?

Do all demoted players end up on waivers, or only some?

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Originally Posted by Nutlaw

If you aren't seeing option years, then you have the Minor League Options box unchecked in the league setup?

All players have 3 option years remaining. When I say it may not be being seen, I mean to suggest that perhaps the logic engine is not recognizing those options as existing.

I'll check and recheck all the rest of your inquires tonight or tomorrow and fill you in. I will say, on the ST training note, that part of the problem exists because the AI has already assigned my active roster after the Inaugural Draft - thus determining major league contracts immediately - and that, as a result under these circumstances, the AI will simply not add to its 40-Man or make any active roster changes unless an injury demands it do so.

Thanks for your continued interest. I'll try to provide the necessary info for both of to come to terms with the issue and decide whether a solution exists and determine the extent of the problem.

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Nutlaw, if you're really interested, here's a zip file of views to get started (at your leisure, course):

http://www.sadleague.allsimbaseball.com/STwaivers.zip

You'll find a few screens from before and during Spring Training, which typify the kinds of confusing signals the engine is generating. When I remembered, I tried to position my mouse to key in on the player to notice (I probably didn't remember it often enough), but if you view them in numerical order you'll get the overall jist: The AI puts players on waivers - in some cases even when it is a minor league contract! How does that happen? - when it moves anyone off the 40-Man (which means off the Active Roster in its case). I found that I can, however, drag and drop my own players from the Active Roster to the AAA club without having to pass through waivers. My recollection, although I did not test it in this series, is that if I use the right-click menu to move the transaction through I will be prompted to put him on waivers.

In any event, check it out. Notice in the first or second screenshot that it is the very day of the draft and the AI already places players on waivers. It is an odd assembly of logic at best, IMHO. Honestly, I hope you are able to look at this and point out something obvious I, in my ignorance, am simply either making too hard or overlooking altogether.

If you want to examine the process independently after this review, I would recommend starting a league, make sure after you do so you clear all service times, set the page to the league's Transactions/Major Transaction News or Complete Log and simply watch it unfold day by day, right-clicking on a player that may catch your attention and Open Profile to check his contract status (which will sometimes be Minor League and sometimes Major), but in every case his options all still remain.

Nuff said for now. Check it out when and if you have the inclination. Thank you again for your interest in helping determine whether this is a problem (I believe it is) and to what extent. Who knows? Maybe it will shed some light on waivers altogether.

[Nutlaw]

Yeah, this has piqued my curiosity. That doesn't look right at all.

I'll run a test league or two and see what I find.

[Nutlaw]

From what I can tell, the problem is that the AI controlled teams aren't using their 40-man roster. They won't leave anyone on the 40-man roster who isn't on their main roster. Before rosters expand for Spring Training, each team is keeping their 40-man roster at exactly 25 players and waiving everyone else.

I've seen one player demoted and removed from the 40-man roster who wasn't waived. He was promoted from the minor leagues to the main roster, then got demoted when another player was taken off of waivers.

Looking further...

[Nutlaw]

Looks like the AI keeps their 40-man roster at exactly 25 players (plus any 15-day DL players) through Spring Training and the rest of the season.

I tried promoting 5 players from Double A onto an AI team's 40-man roster, and the next day, the team waived all of them!

Still looking...

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by endgame

You'll find a few screens from before and during Spring Training, which typify the kinds of confusing signals the engine is generating. When I remembered, I tried to position my mouse to key in on the player to notice (I probably didn't remember it often enough), but if you view them in numerical order you'll get the overall jist: The AI puts players on waivers - in some cases even when it is a minor league contract! How does that happen? - when it moves anyone off the 40-Man (which means off the Active Roster in its case). I found that I can, however, drag and drop my own players from the Active Roster to the AAA club without having to pass through waivers. My recollection, although I did not test it in this series, is that if I use the right-click menu to move the transaction through I will be prompted to put him on waivers.

So the human user can use his 40-man roster properly, and demote players from the majors to the minors without waiving them, no matter what method is used.

Players on the 40-man roster who are removed from that roster have to pass through waivers, regardless of whether or not they have a major league contract. This works correctly for both the AI and the human user. The problem is that the AI is unnecessarily throwing players off of its 40-man roster.

The question is: why is the AI keeping its 40-man roster at 25 players? What settings are causing this? I'll need to create a few more leagues to find out.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Looks like the AI keeps their 40-man roster at exactly 25 players (plus any 15-day DL players) through Spring Training and the rest of the season.

I tried promoting 5 players from Double A onto an AI team's 40-man roster, and the next day, the team waived all of them!

Still looking...

It looks like the AI will leave any extra players on the 40-man roster until it needs to make its next transaction. At that point, it will cut back down to 25 players plus whomever is on the 15-day DL.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Looks like the AI keeps their 40-man roster at exactly 25 players (plus any 15-day DL players) through Spring Training and the rest of the season.

I tried promoting 5 players from Double A onto an AI team's 40-man roster, and the next day, the team waived all of them!

Still looking...

Again, thanks for your continued interest. Here's an aside: when Questdog and I discussed this awhile back (if the thread has merit, I'll provide you a link), we postulated that this may be an instance or setting environment wherein the AI overvalues holding on to option years. Given that this same behavior, while still surfacing in the younger players illogically, doesn't occur in the leagues with traditional service times to this extreme from the pre-season and throughout, effectively, the first three years. Edit: On that same note, there's been much discussion on ST overall and one of those issues is whether options should be expended at all during ST as the process is designed to serve as a tryout period. IRL, I'm not sure they are used in that evaluation period.

Certainly, I want the clean slate oriented league to work correctly. Having a league with no histories, where everybody's a nobody until they become somebody has always been something I've wanted from OOTP. However, a primary focus of using this tool, IMHO, is to view the more skeletal operation of the waiver system at work in, technically, developing players. I hope both roads will lead us to better operations of the system itself, if that makes sense.

[Nutlaw]

Alright, so I tried another new league, simmed it for a few weeks, then erased everyone's service times. Each team then went and cut back their 40-man rosters to 25 players at their next transaction.

[Nutlaw]

Okay, so service time seems to be the key. If I edit a player to have more than zero years of service time, the AI won't release him if I put him on the 40-man roster during Spring Training. The AI might leave him on the roster, or might remove him, but he doesn't waive him.

Also, I guess that players with service time can be removed from the 40-man roster without being waived ... in Spring Training, at least ... by the AI ... if I put them on the 40-man roster first?

[Nutlaw]

I may need some help with this one. I can't quite pin it down. Can someone else lend a hand?

During the regular season, if I edit a player to have service time and promote him to the 40-man roster, the AI will waive him. If I remove the service years of a player in the minor leagues who was placed on the 40-man roster in Spring Training, the AI will waive him. If I don't remove those service years, the AI will leave him on the roster.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by endgame

Again, thanks for your continued interest. Here's an aside: when Questdog and I discussed this awhile back (if the thread has merit, I'll provide you a link), we postulated that this may be an instance or setting environment wherein the AI overvalues holding on to option years.

Could you post that link, please?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Could you post that link, please?

This is the link I referenced:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=131786

But keep in mind there are additional problems beyond those related simply to service time (I think). For instance, as included in my pics, why/how is a player with no service time and in the minors ever put on waivers in the first place? As I've said, it isn't just a ST issue. It's a look at, what I call, the skeletal frame of the waiver system without service time in place. The service time should shore up the evaluations after that, but even then the question about right of refusals, etc... will need evaluated. But first things first. One step at a time.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by endgame

why/how is a player with no service time and in the minors ever put on waivers in the first place?

These players are being put on waivers because they are being removed from the 40-man roster. Anyone, regardless of service time or contract, needs to pass through waivers to be removed from the 40-man roster (though I did see the AI bypass this that once). Go ahead and try it in any league with waivers.

The problem goes back to the fact that the AI won't keep minor leaguers on the 40-man roster if they have no service time.

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bump

...as I see some items being moved to TT, I want to make sure this one is included. My guess is this will be encompassed in an overall re-work of the Spring Training period and its "rules" as discussed in other forum threads. Nonetheless, wanted to make sure it's captured for investigation and review. It simply doesn't work the way it should.

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Originally Posted by endgame

bump

...as I see some items being moved to TT, I want to make sure this one is included. My guess is this will be encompassed in an overall re-work of the Spring Training period and its "rules" as discussed in other forum threads. Nonetheless, wanted to make sure it's captured for investigation and review. It simply doesn't work the way it should.

Once again, hoping to either get this into TT OR be included in the early '07 comments that it is indeed being addressed within the context of an overhaul of the Spring Training rules and format.