The Designated Hitter debate

[marc]

Defensive tackles in football can't run, should we make special rules for them too?

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by attackemu

Well, pinch-hitting, even in the NL, is of pretty secondary strategic importance. The most important thing a manager does strategically is make pitching changes. In the National League, as skipaway pointed out, that's an obvious decision 99% of the time when the pitcher's coming up to bat. In the American League, the decision is much different because you only have to factor in match-ups and how well your pitchers are pitching on a given day.

For example, if your left-handed starter has thrown 110 pitches going into the 7th inning of a time game, has pitched a good game, but has three right-handed batters coming up to face him, do you leave him in? If you're a National League team, and he's due to bat in the 6th, its an easy decision. Not so much for an American League manager. Hell, if the American League didn't have the DH, Pedro Martinez would have pulled in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS for sure. No-one would argue the importance of that strategic decision.

And if there isn't any meaningful pinch-hitting in the AL, anyway, that's bad managing. A good manager would exploit matchups in late innings of close games, and use pinch hitters lots of times.

Yeah, it's way easier to second-guess whatever move made by an AL manager. As an NL manager, you just play by the book and do the regular double switch.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by kq76

Ever notice how goalies contribute to offense too?

If you call dumping the puck off to the closest defender as soon as they touch it contributing to the offense, sure (I'd call that defense). I've never, ever, seen a goalie on the offensive side of the pitch/ice, though.

Originally Posted by kq76

Ever notice how goalies are limited by where they are on the field/ice?

Yeah, it's almost like they're not allowed to be offensive players. Good thing no other sports do that, huh?

[Magatsu]

Originally Posted by mlyons

I've never, ever, seen a goalie on the offensive side of the pitch/ice, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQS07H5sRSU



M

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

In the case of NL, managers pretty much just replace hitters/pitchers by formula: whenever the pitcher is coming up to hit.

Especially with LaRussian rosters with 12 or 13 pitchers. When you only have three bench players, and one is probably a backup catcher with a .625 OPS, another probably a utility infielder who can't hit his weight, exactly how much strategic pinch hitting can you do when you know you're hitting for a pitcher once or twice a game?

[dudeosu]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

If you really wanted to make a football analogy, you'd have to use a position that was fundamentally different from all the others. So maybe a punter. A pitcher is like a punter--and there are a ton of different rules for engaging the punter on the football field compared to the other positions. Same with the kicker. Same with the QB, for that matter. You can hit every other player with the ball below the knees except for him.

It's not unprecedented for sports to treat unique positions far differently than the others. Hell, soccer goalies can use their hands.

Except those rules were made to protect a player from injury. A better analogy would be kicking or punting a ball, waiting for the catch, pausing the game to trot out someone who can actually tackle well, then resuming the play. As it is, punters may have to tackle too.

[ctorg]

I'm not a fan of the DH rule. While I understand why it improves the game to some people, I think there's a missing element of suspense in DH games. Knowing that the ninth slot in the order is sort of a black hole just makes things more interesting to me. I like the thinking that goes into the decision of whether to leave a pitcher in to let him close out the inning when he's the first one up next inning. I like double switches getting guys who don't play often into odd spots in the lineup.

I suspect that whether a person likes the DH or not is primarily a function of what they're used to or what their favorite team has. I'm a Mets fan, so I prefer NL ball. I'd bet if you gave the poll six options based on whether someone likes or dislikes the DH and whether their favorite team is AL, NL, or neither (no favorite team or multiple), it would show heavy bias.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by dudeosu

Except those rules were made to protect a player from injury. A better analogy would be kicking or punting a ball, waiting for the catch, pausing the game to trot out someone who can actually tackle well, then resuming the play. As it is, punters may have to tackle too.

Except that you don't stop the regular flow of the game and do something wildly out of place when a DH bats. The DH is less disruptive to the regular flow of the game than ordinary pinch hitting.

If you were watching a game in a stadium in Japan where you couldn't read the scoreboard, couldn't understand the PA announcer, and couldn't really see the numbers or faces of the batter you wouldn't even know if the DH rule was in effect or not. It would look completely seamless.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by ctorg

I suspect that whether a person likes the DH or not is primarily a function of what they're used to or what their favorite team has. I'm a Mets fan, so I prefer NL ball. I'd bet if you gave the poll six options based on whether someone likes or dislikes the DH and whether their favorite team is AL, NL, or neither (no favorite team or multiple), it would show heavy bias.

Dola,
Don't you think that bias would, in large part, be due to National League partisans telling anyone who asks that the DH is an abomination, that National League ball is true and right and just?

I think if you introduced someone to baseball today and didn't tell them the world was DH-less for 100 years, there's little chance they'd independently decide that the DH was an assult on the very foundations of the game. Most of the dislike is a historical artifact, kind of like love for complete games, or devotion to sac bunting.

The NFL, which doesn't have baseball's hidebound devotion to tradition, doesn't have anything at all like the controversy surrounding the DH. There's is no one of consequence who agitates to have regular players kick field goals and punt. They just decided it made more sense to have specialized kickers, and moved on.

[dudeosu]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Except that you don't stop the regular flow of the game and do something wildly out of place when a DH bats. The DH is less disruptive to the regular flow of the game than ordinary pinch hitting.

If you were watching a game in a stadium in Japan where you couldn't read the scoreboard, couldn't understand the PA announcer, and couldn't really see the numbers or faces of the batter you wouldn't even know if the DH rule was in effect or not. It would look completely seamless.

The regular flow of football is stopped all the time. What would be the difference to someone who's never seen the game before if kickoffs and returns were separated instead of one play?

The DH doesn't stop the regular flow of baseball since there is no regular flow of baseball, it's not a timed game.

EDIT: I don't like the football analogies since the two games are so different. Yes a kicker is specialized, but he still has to take part in the rest of the play that he's a part of.

[dudeosu]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Dola,
Don't you think that bias would, in large part, be due to National League partisans telling anyone who asks that the DH is an abomination, that National League ball is true and right and just?

I think if you introduced someone to baseball today and didn't tell them the world was DH-less for 100 years, there's little chance they'd independently decide that the DH was an assult on the very foundations of the game. Most of the dislike is a historical artifact, kind of like love for complete games, or devotion to sac bunting.

The NFL, which doesn't have baseball's hidebound devotion to tradition, doesn't have anything at all like the controversy surrounding the DH. There's is no one of consequence who agitates to have regular players kick field goals and punt. They just decided it made more sense to have specialized kickers, and moved on.

You don't think some astute people, having never been introduced to the game, would ask why one particular field player doesn't have to bat whereas one particular batter doesn't have to field?

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by attackemu

dola,

and the NL featured more home runs, doubles and triples than the AL this year so I don't know that I'd argue they need to "make more moves to scrape out a run."

LOL

Three words for you........"two more teams."

[darkhorse]

dola,

respective BA, OBP, and SLG for the two leagues in 2006.

NL .265 .334 .427
AL .275 .339 .437

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Why can't baseball be like football, where you always find whoever best for a job to do that job. Football has advanced away from the amateurish "one player, several roles" for a long time.

So I'm guessing you're not a big fan of basketball, hockey, or soccer.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by dudeosu

You don't think some astute people, having never been introduced to the game, would ask why one particular field player doesn't have to bat whereas one particular batter doesn't have to field?

Wouldn't they also ask why one guy has to pitch all the time, while everyone else just gets to stand around and only take part when the ball is hit in their direction?

[dudeosu]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Wouldn't they also ask why one guy has to pitch all the time, while everyone else just gets to stand around and only take part when the ball is hit in their direction?

Now that you mention it, wouldn't it be fun to see someone in center chuck a ball in to home and see a batter try and club it? Balls and strikes wouldn't work anymore...

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by dudeosu

Now that you mention it, wouldn't it be fun to see someone in center chuck a ball in to home and see a batter try and club it? Balls and strikes wouldn't work anymore...

Canseco tried it. Wasn't pretty.

[KurtBevacqua]

The thing that always got me, in high school or little league, isn't the ace pitcher usually the best hitter on the team too. And you see it a lot in college too. Every year in the CWS there are a number of ace pitchers who DH on their off days. So what happens to these guys between boyhood stardom and big league stardom?

[mikev]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

The thing that always got me, in high school or little league, isn't the ace pitcher usually the best hitter on the team too. And you see it a lot in college too. Every year in the CWS there are a number of ace pitchers who DH on their off days. So what happens to these guys between boyhood stardom and big league stardom?

The ridiculous jump in talent between college and the bigs, thats what.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

So I'm guessing you're not a big fan of basketball, hockey, or soccer.

Where did you get that? Apparently in those sports the games weren't designed to break up into sessions so you can sub players in for specific roles.