The Designated Hitter debate - Page 3

darkhorse · 10-04-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reds1

Yeah, he was mighty fine.

Yes. Yes, he was.

reds1 · 10-04-2006, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Yes. Yes, he was.

Quite so.

darkhorse · 10-04-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reds1

Quite so.

Agreed.

reds1 · 10-04-2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Agreed.

Amen.

attackemu · 10-04-2006, 02:38 AM

I think there's actually a bit less strategy without the DH. Pinch-hitting for pitchers is pretty much automatic. It's usually very clear when to do it and when not to do it. If things like double-switches, which are also pretty obvious, are what that argument refers to, color me confused.

darkhorse · 10-04-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reds1

Amen.

Game.set.match

dudeosu · 10-04-2006, 10:36 AM

But why stop at just pitchers? Can't we have designated hitters for the other crappy hitters out there, like some catchers? How about designated fielders? Adam Dunn can't field worth a damn, I think it's bad for the game to have to see him take his chances and fail so much, he needs someone to field for him.

CBL-Commish · 10-04-2006, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Even earlier. There were pushes for a DH in the 19th century.

And they had little to do with increasing offense. A lot of folks thought that pitchers already had the hardest job on the field, and that freeing them from batting might allow them to have longer, more successful careers as, you know... pitchers.

KurtBevacqua · 10-04-2006, 10:45 AM

Who wants to watch athletes toil with a skill in their sport they are clearly inept at? Hooray for the DH that keeps lamo pitchers from hitting.

And why stop with baseball? Shaquille O'Neal can't shoot free throws, basketball needs designated free throw shooters. Dan O'Brien screwed up his Olympic qualifiers that one year by missing the pole vault, so I say designated pole vaulters in the decathlon for decathletes who can't pole vault. Tom Watson has troubles making big putts, let's get a designated putter out their on the golf course for these guys. Chris Evert always got beat by Martina because of a weak serve, she should have had someone else serve for her.

We pay good money to see the very best performances. Let's give every athlete the option to bring in a substitute to perform that one thing they just don't do very well. We the fans demand it.

CBL-Commish · 10-04-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudeosu

But why stop at just pitchers? Can't we have designated hitters for the other crappy hitters out there, like some catchers? How about designated fielders? Adam Dunn can't field worth a damn, I think it's bad for the game to have to see him take his chances and fail so much, he needs someone to field for him.

If Adam Dunn had a .387 fielding percentage and successfully caught a ball once every six games you'd have a point. If catchers hit .140 you'd have a point.

If you look at OPS/(League OPS) of the other nine positions they look something like this: 110, 105, 102, 101, 100, 99, 97, 95, 92. Pitchers are at about 40. They're many orders of magnitude worse than anyone else who tries to hit.

Adam Dunn is probably 90% as good a fielder as an average player, maybe better than that. An average catcher is 93% as good as an other hitters. An average pitcher is 40% as good a hitter as the rest of the league.

Prodigal Son · 10-04-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

And why stop with baseball? Shaquille O'Neal can't shoot free throws, basketball needs designated free throw shooters. Dan O'Brien screwed up his Olympic qualifiers that one year by missing the pole vault, so I say designated pole vaulters in the decathlon for decathletes who can't pole vault. Tom Watson has troubles making big putts, let's get a designated putter out their on the golf course for these guys. Chris Evert always got beat by Martina because of a weak serve, she should have had someone else serve for her.

All of those analogies don't work, though, because the pitcher position is different in very essential ways from every other position on the diamond.

CBL-Commish · 10-04-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Who wants to watch athletes toil with a skill in their sport they are clearly inept at? Hooray for the DH that keeps lamo pitchers from hitting.

And why stop with baseball? Shaquille O'Neal can't shoot free throws, basketball needs designated free throw shooters.

But there aren't a whole class of basketball players who inherently make 30% or 40% of their free throws. Shaq makes 52%, and he's an anomaly, not the norm for centers. Pitchers are orders of magnitude worse than the worst-hitting regulars at any other position.

Quote:

Dan O'Brien screwed up his Olympic qualifiers that one year by missing the pole vault, so I say designated pole vaulters in the decathlon for decathletes who can't pole vault.

Pitchers don't have a problem coming through in the clutch in the World Series. They have a problem hitting .140 from March through October every year.

Quote:

Tom Watson has troubles making big putts, let's get a designated putter out their on the golf course for these guys.

This isn't a problem of missing a few clutch shots. This is a problem of major league pitchers, as a group, having the hitting ability of an average player in the Gulf Coast League.

Quote:

Chris Evert always got beat by Martina because of a weak serve, she should have had someone else serve for her.

Her serve was good enough to make her a HOF tennis player. Dontrelle Willis' bat might qualify him for the Carolina League All Star team in a good year.

dudeosu · 10-04-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

If Adam Dunn had a .387 fielding percentage and successfully caught a ball once every six games you'd have a point. If catchers hit .140 you'd have a point.

If you look at OPS/(League OPS) of the other nine positions they look something like this: 110, 105, 102, 101, 100, 99, 97, 95, 92. Pitchers are at about 40. They're many orders of magnitude worse than anyone else who tries to hit.

Adam Dunn is probably 90% as good a fielder as an average player, maybe better than that. An average catcher is 93% as good as an other hitters. An average pitcher is 40% as good a hitter as the rest of the league.

But at what point does a particular player's stats qualify him to have someone bat for him? Do you take career stats or season stats?

Being an incomplete player is that player's fault, not the fault of the game that requires a rule change. It's all so arbitrary.

As for the differences between pitchers and the rest, are those differences necessary? Does a pitcher have to be a bad hitter?

darkhorse · 10-04-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudeosu

Being an incomplete player is that player's fault, not the fault of the game that requires a rule change.

Major League hitters seem to be ok with their lack of pitching ability.

dudeosu · 10-04-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Major League hitters seem to be ok with their lack of pitching ability.

Fair enough but there isn't a rule that says because hitters are such bad pitchers they aren't allowed to pitch.

Some can and some do.

darkhorse · 10-04-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudeosu

Very few can and almost none do.

Agreed.

CBL-Commish · 10-04-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudeosu

Fair enough but there isn't a rule that says because hitters are such bad pitchers they aren't allowed to pitch.

Some can and some do.

And there is no rule that says you have to use a DH. American League teams are completely free to have their pitchers bat.

There just aren't any that are good enough to do so. And yes, it has to be that way. Either that or generation upon generation of pitchers have chosen to not be any good with the bat.

jaxmagicman · 10-04-2006, 11:35 AM

I think I am going to make my own baseball league where there are fielders and hitters. I love watching outstanding defense. That would be the perfect game. Really good hitters lining shots all over the field while players of outstanding defense rob them of hit after hit.

dudeosu · 10-04-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

And there is no rule that says you have to use a DH. American League teams are completely free to have their pitchers bat.

And again, if there's the option to use the DH, why not have the option to designate other tasks be done for players who aren't that good at them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

There just aren't any that are good enough to do so. And yes, it has to be that way. Either that or generation upon generation of pitchers have chosen to not be any good with the bat.

If it has to be that way, why? If they've chosen to not be any good, then so be it, they can't hit when they come to bat.

Skipaway · 10-04-2006, 12:05 PM

Why can't baseball be like football, where you always find whoever best for a job to do that job. Football has advanced away from the amateurish "one player, several roles" for a long time.

View Poll Results: Is the DH a good idea?
Yes. Pitchers hitting is stupid.	31	44.29%
No. Play the field if you're gonna hit, you sissy.	39	55.71%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

10-04-2006, 02:38 AM	#45
attackemu All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 972	I think there's actually a bit less strategy without the DH. Pinch-hitting for pitchers is pretty much automatic. It's usually very clear when to do it and when not to do it. If things like double-switches, which are also pretty obvious, are what that argument refers to, color me confused. __________________ "Disguised in EMU's Blunt and sometimes hostile post is actually very sound advice. I think you would be wise to consider what he said." -ihatenames

10-04-2006, 10:45 AM	#49
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,968	Who wants to watch athletes toil with a skill in their sport they are clearly inept at? Hooray for the DH that keeps lamo pitchers from hitting. And why stop with baseball? Shaquille O'Neal can't shoot free throws, basketball needs designated free throw shooters. Dan O'Brien screwed up his Olympic qualifiers that one year by missing the pole vault, so I say designated pole vaulters in the decathlon for decathletes who can't pole vault. Tom Watson has troubles making big putts, let's get a designated putter out their on the golf course for these guys. Chris Evert always got beat by Martina because of a weak serve, she should have had someone else serve for her. We pay good money to see the very best performances. Let's give every athlete the option to bring in a substitute to perform that one thing they just don't do very well. We the fans demand it. __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

10-04-2006, 11:35 AM	#58
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	I think I am going to make my own baseball league where there are fielders and hitters. I love watching outstanding defense. That would be the perfect game. Really good hitters lining shots all over the field while players of outstanding defense rob them of hit after hit. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

10-04-2006, 12:05 PM	#60
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Why can't baseball be like football, where you always find whoever best for a job to do that job. Football has advanced away from the amateurish "one player, several roles" for a long time. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

10-04-2006, 10:36 AM	#47
dudeosu Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 373	But why stop at just pitchers? Can't we have designated hitters for the other crappy hitters out there, like some catchers? How about designated fielders? Adam Dunn can't field worth a damn, I think it's bad for the game to have to see him take his chances and fail so much, he needs someone to field for him.