Stopper/closer

[OldFatGuy]

Yeah, I just checked Baseball Reference dot come, and Smoltz won 200 games and saved over 150. But I don't think BR tracks holds since it's not an official stat.

EDIT: Oh yeah they do.... it's on the Advanced Pitching stats page. Smoltz had 5 career holds. LOL.

[Padreman]

Yeah there's a couple 150 wins 150 Save guys like Eckersly too. None with over 100 on those 3 stats

[nico1270]

Forget the ninth inning -- Andrew Miller is here to save the game by Sam Miller - ESPN

Fireman was also used instead of stopper. Nice article there explaining what happened and how the role changed thru the years.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Ok you just proved my point and I'm assuming his 21 saves was a team
Lead. There's no reason why this type of picture couldn't exist in a modern baseball setting in A fictional league. Having some managers have the tendencies to use this type of game plan rather than the modern closet so in a league you may come acrosss both. A one inning closer or a guy that comes in for 3 or 4.

Nobody ever did what Mike Marshall did during his peak, before or after him (and Marshall himself declined after that season), so it's little silly to say there's no reason someone else couldn't do it. Of course there is, and it's the same reason a modern player will never be able to break the records for triples in a season (36) ... the modern game is played under different conditions.

Marshall, like McGraw, Wilhelm, Quisenberry, and most of the 50s-70s firemen, was a junkballer whose fastballs were about the speed of most off-speed pitches today. Modern relievers rely on throwing 95+ mph fastballs one after the other. If Marshall was throwing those same pitches today, he'd be crushed; but ask a modern reliever to carry Marshall's workload and his arm would be a wreck. The game has changed.

There's an excellent article up on Fangraphs currently explaining how the trend toward high-powered fastball specialists has been going on for 130 years.

[NoOne]

i had a closer in ootp clear a 100wins without ever starting. he had a few double digits years strung together early on.. kept winning at a decent clip, relative to a closer. i don't actively track them once they leave my team.. never got to look him over after retirement. since ootp 18 came out, i haven't booted up '17. it wouldnt surprise me if he was approaching 130-150ish.

since he played the bulk of his career with me, he had a ton of saves, too. probably not many holds, thouhg... they give those out more than assists in hockey, lol. the pitching metrics are more important to me, but i do want to break the saves record, too a bit of a contradiction!

but.. i do use 8thplus and high lev. secondary role. so, it's almost a hybrid of closer and stopper in some ways.

and, my coach is, at that time probably 3 clicks down from middle for situational vs traditional. i do 2 ticks down, nowadays - a few more saves for the cl that way.

[bwburke94]

It might be worth noting that OOTP allows the stopper role only with "Normal" (or less) closer usage.

Given the modern Andrew Miller role is mostly equivalent to the stopper, I've long advocated for this to change.

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by frangipard

Nobody ever did what Mike Marshall did during his peak, before or after him (and Marshall himself declined after that season), so it's little silly to say there's no reason someone else couldn't do it. Of course there is, and it's the same reason a modern player will never be able to break the records for triples in a season (36) ... the modern game is played under different conditions.

Marshall, like McGraw, Wilhelm, Quisenberry, and most of the 50s-70s firemen, was a junkballer whose fastballs were about the speed of most off-speed pitches today. Modern relievers rely on throwing 95+ mph fastballs one after the other. If Marshall was throwing those same pitches today, he'd be crushed; but ask a modern reliever to carry Marshall's workload and his arm would be a wreck. The game has changed.

There's an excellent article up on Fangraphs currently explaining how the trend toward high-powered fastball specialists has been going on for 130 years.

Of course Marshall declined after that 1974 season, he was 31 yr old when it happened, yet he pitched another 9 seasons, including a similar seasons in the AL with the Twins in 1978/79 Pitching in 240+ innings with 53sv and 23w and he was 35/36 at that time. And to say Marshall would get crushed in the modern era is kinda silly and pure speculation, he had one of the meanest screwballs remembered and that is the consensus #1 pitch to throw if you want to destroy your arm. But that is a whole different thread

It's not the amount Marshall pitched that is a reflection of the Stopper Role it's the way he was used, often and for 2 innings more often than not

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

And to say Marshall would get crushed in the modern era is kinda silly and pure speculation,

But it's pretty safe speculation. Name any three pitchers -- starters or relievers -- in the last decade who have been dominant pitchers without throwing 90+ fastballs. You can be a useful innings-eater throwing 86-88, but not the kind of pitcher a manager seeks to put on the mound during his highest-pressure situations. Back then, that was the norm. It doesn't make Marshall any less of a great player, because you judge players by the standards and conditions and strategies of their era, not by what would happen with a time machine; but we can't pretend as if a half-century of innovation in weight training and the like haven't impacted the game.

Originally Posted by Painmantle

It's not the amount Marshall pitched that is a reflection of the Stopper Role it's the way he was used, often and for 2 innings more often than not

I have no idea what this sentence means. If you use a reliever for 2 innings more often than not, he's going to have a heavier workload than a guy used for one inning only. And in fact most stoppers ended up throwing 80-120 innings a year, instead of the 65-70 that is typical of top relievers today.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

It might be worth noting that OOTP allows the stopper role only with "Normal" (or less) closer usage.

Given the modern Andrew Miller role is mostly equivalent to the stopper, I've long advocated for this to change.

Out of curiosity I don't know if this is the setting that you use which allows both the closer and stopper role to appear but if it is with the normal usage sitting I thought how many saves is the league leader usually have per season on average?

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by frangipard

I have no idea what this sentence means. If you use a reliever for 2 innings more often than not, he's going to have a heavier workload than a guy used for one inning only. And in fact most stoppers ended up throwing 80-120 innings a year, instead of the 65-70 that is typical of top relievers today.

It means it isn't the 106 Games that Marshall pitched in, that was a freak of nature, it's how much he pitched in each outing regardless of weather it was every day, every other day or every 3rd day. A closer pitches usually 1 inning or less each outing and usually with a lead, a Stopper usually pitches more than an inning, pushing 2 each outing. And would come in in any close game situation, ahead or behind. So naturally based on the same number of outings per season a Stopper would double a closers IP in any given year!

[David Watts]

Another pitcher that tends to get overlooked in these conversations is John Hiller of the Tigers. He had 38 saves in 73. 65 games, 60 finished. 125.1 innings pitched. Followed that up in 74 with a completely different season, only 13 saves, 59 games, 52 finished. 150 innings pitched. He was 17-14 in 74. 4th in the Cy Young voting for 73. 7th for 74.

[CMH]

Sorry this thread is frustrating and does a lot of what I hate about these types of questions.

The op wants to know the difference in stopper and closer and instead of getting an answer relative to the game we are playing, the answers relate to real world MLB.

That doesn't answer the question for OOTP gamers. And it's how we run into the continuous issue of how the bullpen is utilized in OOTP.

I love this game but I'm beyond frustrated seeing a lefty specialist give up a tying home run to a right handed hitter when there are healthy, well-rested right handers in the pen.

How does OOTP use Stopper vs Closer?

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[David Watts]

Originally Posted by CMH

Sorry this thread is frustrating and does a lot of what I hate about these types of questions.

The op wants to know the difference in stopper and closer and instead of getting an answer relative to the game we are playing, the answers relate to real world MLB.

That doesn't answer the question for OOTP gamers. And it's how we run into the continuous issue of how the bullpen is utilized in OOTP.

I love this game but I'm beyond frustrated seeing a lefty specialist give up a tying home run to a right handed hitter when there are healthy, well-rested right handers in the pen.

How does OOTP use Stopper vs Closer?

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But, how do you discuss this without discussing real baseball? OOTP is supposed to simulate real baseball. When playing during periods in which the game uses the stopper role instead of closers, you will see the ace of the bullpen enter the game in the 7th at times, more often the 8th and when he comes in he will finish the game, unless he gets lit up. The stoppers will finish with more innings than closers and also more decisions as well. Which in the end, is a pretty darn good simulation of how these pitchers worked in real life. Sure Andrew Miller was used in a similar fashion last year, but he wasn't exactly the same either. He would still find himself removed for Allen the closer for the Indians or even Chapman the closer for the Yankees. I'm not sure if OOTP allows for the user to use both a closer and stopper, as I've never tried doing so. I also think, for the stopper to actually operate in the fashion the OP is hoping for, Markus might have to program an entirely new role.....and that role may end up being more fictional than based in reality.

Your lefty specialist thing is a whole different issue and I feel your pain.

[CMH]

Originally Posted by David Watts

But, how do you discuss this without discussing real baseball? OOTP is supposed to simulate real baseball. When playing during periods in which the game uses the stopper role instead of closers, you will see the ace of the bullpen enter the game in the 7th at times, more often the 8th and when he comes in he will finish the game, unless he gets lit up. The stoppers will finish with more innings than closers and also more decisions as well. Which in the end, is a pretty darn good simulation of how these pitchers worked in real life. Sure Andrew Miller was used in a similar fashion last year, but he wasn't exactly the same either. He would still find himself removed for Allen the closer for the Indians or even Chapman the closer for the Yankees. I'm not sure if OOTP allows for the user to use both a closer and stopper, as I've never tried doing so. I also think, for the stopper to actually operate in the fashion the OP is hoping for, Markus might have to program an entirely new role.....and that role may end up being more fictional than based in reality.

Your lefty specialist thing is a whole different issue and I feel your pain.

I think discussing real world is important when asking for it to be corrected. I agree there.

But when discussing how it works currently, real world is irrelevant as it causes confusion for the user.

I.e. lefty specialist. We know how it should work in the real world. But how it works in game still confuses me and I wish I understood.

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[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Another pitcher that tends to get overlooked in these conversations is John Hiller of the Tigers. He had 38 saves in 73. 65 games, 60 finished. 125.1 innings pitched. Followed that up in 74 with a completely different season, only 13 saves, 59 games, 52 finished. 150 innings pitched. He was 17-14 in 74. 4th in the Cy Young voting for 73. 7th for 74.

All this after suffering a heart attack.

His could start is his curve if he felt like it over the batter's head an it would end up at the ankles. That kind of stuff stuff is effective in any era.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by frangipard

But it's pretty safe speculation. Name any three pitchers -- starters or relievers -- in the last decade who have been dominant pitchers without throwing 90+ fastballs. .

Mark Buerhle, Greg Maddux, and Trevor Hoffman.

Last year's ERA leader in the NL was Kyle Hendricks, one of the softest tossers in the league.

If Marshall were pitching today and he was locating his screwball, hitters would have just as tough a time now as then. The vocation is "pitching", not "throwing".

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

All this after suffering a heart attack.

His could start is his curve if he felt like it over the batter's head an it would end up at the ankles. That kind of stuff stuff is effective in any era.

John Hiller holds a very special place in my heart, mainly due to my dad. I loved Hiller, my dad not so much. Are debates (me being a kid) over his value to the team I will always remember.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by David Watts

John Hiller holds a very special place in my heart, mainly due to my dad. I loved Hiller, my dad not so much. Are debates (me being a kid) over his value to the team I will always remember.

A very early memory I have as a little kid is watching Lolich chew up and spit out the White Sox, then Hiller came in for the coup de grace. The Sox had no chance that night.

[Elysian Fields]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Well the main issue will be according to what I'm reading I'll closer we'll come in towards the end of the game with his team in the lead and Pitch maybe one or two innings a stopper can come in in the sixth inning while losing pitch 2 or 3 endings and possibly pick up a relief win. So you can potentially have a top-notch closer who gets 40 saves the season get signed to A Team that prefers to use a stopper. He takes on that role now his saves will drop but his Innings ,strikeouts and relief wins will go up

This is where baseball is headed or already is. It should allow the AI to leverage it's best reliever in the higher leverage situations. The save stat and closer position is losing value.


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[Padreman]

I guess what I'm trying to ask is the classical stopper role and the modern closer coexist in the same fictional league? Not in the same team I understand that you either go with one or the other but having some teams who prefer the modern way of things lights out guy comes in for one inning and boom
Save. Or the another team that prefers the stopper pitches more innings I get more wins in relief fewer saves than a closer? Or with the game automatically put both roles in the team ? Is the AI smart enough to decide either you go with one or the other? I'm just concerned that the AI will manually pick a guy for each team and assigned him that role when one team he will have to closer and a stopper