Bah

[gmo]

I think it's fair to wish OOTP would focus just on the way you want to play. I've only really done solo, fictional, modern-era type leagues, so I at times think about how nice it would be if no attention was paid to other areas of the game.

We live in a time of specialization - for most people you find a small niche and do that, be in deep-snapping, aquarium repair, cab driving, etc. If OOTP wants to take the Leonardo da Vinci-type approach and try to do a little of everything, why not? Perhaps it is not awesome in any one area and improvement is more incremental since it is spread out so much. This opinion is not universal as evidenced by the likes of Claybor, but I think it continues to improve. I don't think the approach has dragged down the game, even though you could say any given area is not perfect yet because it hasn't gotten enough attention.

My initial feelings were that the next OOTP version would not be as drastically different (be that positive or negative) as most people were thinking with the merger with SI. But with the bits of info from Markus I am becoming more intrigued about how changed the game will be.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Henry

Well, one thing that's becoming very clear. Don't post any details about the game until about two weeks before release - and make sure nothing is in the list that isn't going to be in the game. The idea of sharing what you'd like to do or hope to do obviously isn't in the best interests of anyone.

Good call. Imo at least, you should let customers know what is in the game so they can make an informed decision on how they wish to spend there money.

I'm not interested in hearing about what Markus might put in this version or maybe push off to next years.

I still wonder why that doesn't make sense to anyone on the development team........

If it's in the game, advertise it as such. If it's on the wish list, be perfectly clear that that's the case. Any company that advertises something as included in their product and then doesn't include that in their product is doing themselves and their customers a disservice.

Just my $0.02

[gmo]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

Good call. Imo at least, you should let customers know what is in the game so they can make an informed decision on how they wish to spend there money.

I'm not interested in hearing about what Markus might put in this version or maybe push off to next years.

I still wonder why that doesn't make sense to anyone on the development team........

If it's in the game, advertise it as such. If it's on the wish list, be perfectly clear that that's the case. Any company that advertises something as included in their product and then doesn't include that in their product is doing themselves and their customers a disservice.

Just my $0.02

Agreed, except I am interested in what may be or could be. I think it should be very clear the status of things like whether it is already in or whether it is not yet, but should be soon, etc. That would be an ideal world.

But also in that ideal world people would understand that plans change and things don't work out right & on the original schedule. And things would be interpreted correctly. You may well be right, but I don't remember the FC being promised, merely that it was being worked on. Unfortunately a lot of people see stuff on wish lists and noted as possibilities and think they are guarantees.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally Posted by Henry

Well, one thing that's becoming very clear. Don't post any details about the game until about two weeks before release - and make sure nothing is in the list that isn't going to be in the game. The idea of sharing what you'd like to do or hope to do obviously isn't in the best interests of anyone.

I agree with this 100% BUT, for every person who feels this way there is a person who wants to know every detail today and have it posted, that will be in v8(yes I'm kidding, but probably not off by much.) Has everyone forgotten the (seeming) demand that we post the v6 feature list awhile prior to release and the fact that folks were claiming that we were "hiding things"? Just a reminder.

[Ben E Lou]

I definitely agree that y'all can't win either way on the pre-release feature list. Unfortunately, you're highly likely to piss off part of your customer base either way.

FTR, I don't disagree with Henry's statements. If you look at it carefully, we're really saying two different things.

[JerseyPride]

My biggest problem with the way OOTP6 has been handled is that why is work being done on OOTP7, when you still have two other products in OOTP6 and ITP that are nowhere near a completed product? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend time completing these two games with the needed patches/updates, and then go on to focusing on OOTP7.

[rwd59]

Originally Posted by Steve Kuffrey

I agree with this 100% BUT, for every person who feels this way there is a person who wants to know every detail today and have it posted, that will be in v8(yes I'm kidding, but probably not off by much.) Has everyone forgotten the (seeming) demand that we post the v6 feature list awhile prior to release and the fact that folks were claiming that we were "hiding things"? Just a reminder.

Yes, it is a tough position to be in. Kinda damned if you do-damned if you don't. However, I see no problem with letting people know what is already in the game. Update as things are added. Never say something will be in the game until it is in and you will be less likely to incur the wrath of as many people as have been peeved this time. And yes, I know some people are not gonna like it unless they know every single detail about the game weeks in advance. I think the so called silent treatment would do more harm than good.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by JerseyPride

My biggest problem with the way OOTP6 has been handled is that why is work being done on OOTP7, when you still have two other products in OOTP6 and ITP that are nowhere near a completed product? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend time completing these two games with the needed patches/updates, and then go on to focusing on OOTP7.

One word: economics

I do agree with you that I'd wholeheartedly want them to finish OOTP6 and even ITP before even thinking about OOTP7, but the fact of life is that OOTP6 and ITP isn't going to make them much more money than it already has. Sure, the "major update" might generate slightly more $$$ and sales upon its release, but those amounts will be trivial compared to the $$$ that an OOTP7 release will generate.

Is it bothersome? You bet. Do they care and will they listen? Doubtful.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by JerseyPride

My biggest problem with the way OOTP6 has been handled is that why is work being done on OOTP7, when you still have two other products in OOTP6 and ITP that are nowhere near a completed product? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend time completing these two games with the needed patches/updates, and then go on to focusing on OOTP7.

Don't forget that ITP is still Markus' product. SI only contracted for OOTP thus 40 hours a week are commited to OOTP7 (and maybe a little V6 if Mark Vaughn "looks the other way") but ITP at least has to be done on Markus own time.

Also, Markus has pretty much commited continued updates and a major patch before he moves on to V7 permanently (probably in the Fall) so that would be the same support all past versions of OOTP got as well.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Henry

Don't forget that ITP is still Markus' product. SI only contracted for OOTP thus 40 hours a week are commited to OOTP7 (and maybe a little V6 if Mark Vaughn "looks the other way") but ITP at least has to be done on Markus own time.

Also, Markus has pretty much commited continued updates and a major patch before he moves on to V7 permanently (probably in the Fall) so that would be the same support all past versions of OOTP got as well.

One would hope to think that Mark Vaughn looks the other way in allowing Markus to update v6 and enable it to finally be the product as advertised. Because if Mark Vaughn pisses off the customer base for the product he just acquired, then he's made a horrible business decision.

[cgh3rd]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I definitely agree that y'all can't win either way on the pre-release feature list. Unfortunately, you're highly likely to piss off part of your customer base either way.

FTR, I don't disagree with Henry's statements. If you look at it carefully, we're really saying two different things.

LOL, I've come to the conclusion part of the customer base is always pissed off. They still buy the product so they can continue to piss and moan. Anyone who says the game is not complete didn't buy the last Sierra Football Product. That was incomplete. There are issues with the game. I agree not having a manual done is a big problem. Financial co-effieicents and pitching editor complaints is when we all begin to look a bit freaky (I'm one of them too) in our dissection of this game. What if those 3 problems were fixed? Would Soxwin be back in here the next day with 3 more issues? More likely someone looking for THEIR perfect sim will be in here with their issues and pounding on them til the cows come home. IMO, the pounding that goes on in the forum about the manual and H2H is ridiculous. Especially when I consistently see honest and straightforward posts about what is going with the game from Markus, Steve and Henry.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Because if Mark Vaughn pisses off the customer base for the product he just acquired, then he's made a horrible business decision.

Not necessarily.

If that means a better OOTP7, all will be forgiven. I don't think people would be pissed enough to never take a look at OOTP7.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by JerseyPride

My biggest problem with the way OOTP6 has been handled is that why is work being done on OOTP7, when you still have two other products in OOTP6 and ITP that are nowhere near a completed product? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend time completing these two games with the needed patches/updates, and then go on to focusing on OOTP7.

Working to improve existing products does not generate a new source of cash flow. Only a new product can do that.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

One would hope to think that Mark Vaughn looks the other way in allowing Markus to update v6 and enable it to finally be the product as advertised. Because if Mark Vaughn pisses off the customer base for the product he just acquired, then he's made a horrible business decision.

Not if they are counting on marketing the game to new customers.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Is it bothersome? You bet. Do they care and will they listen? Doubtful.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

[originalgamer]

I first heard about this game a year and a half ago, and I waited until I thought it would be really great before I got involved. I didnt want to be dissapointed, and figured the 6th version would be amazing. It is a decent game, and because of lack of competition is by far the best at what it trys to do, but Im also pretty disapointed overall. A franchise thats been around, doing the same game, should be alot better than this is. It doesnt seem that far off, but it needs some basic work done and alot of loose ends tied up. I hope the next version is more polished, and dont think some new blood can hurt. I havent been here very long but get the feeling this thing is stagnant, and maybe the resources of a larger co. can kick it in the ass and bump it up to what it can be.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Working to improve existing products does not generate a new source of cash flow.

Not necessarily true. See first person shooter games such as the Unreal Tournament franchise for evidence of that.

The original UT, UT2003, and now UT2004, have all received a number of post-release patches which, while addressing bugs, did also offer new material and game improvements. The developer also offered "bonus" patches which did nothing but add new content.

I can also point to the IL-2 Sturmovik combat flight simulator franchise as well. Several patches for the original IL-2 and the follow-up IL-2: Forgotten Battles have also had patches which added new content.

Now, why would these companies expend this additional effort in making new content for these games if it was not generating something worthwhile for the company?

The addition of new material keeps established fans of the game interested and enthusiastic about the title, and undoubtedly someone still interested and enthusiastic about a game is going to tell their friends about it and perhaps generate some additional sales as a result. Let's remember, the biggest thing that's going to sell games is positive word-of-mouth (the same is very much true for movie ticket sales).

Of course, there's probably also a pride and company reputation element involved in adding new content to a released game. But certainly there must be some sort of financial benefit to it (even if it's an indirect one), otherwise it would not be done to the extent it has been done for the aforementioned game titles.

I really get the feeling sometimes that many of the folks here have little experience with gaming outside of the OOTP series...

[Kaline]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I really get the feeling sometimes that many of the folks here have little experience with gaming outside of the OOTP series...

Some of my favorite games were from the Europa Universalis Series. Untill the game Victoria came out and was increidbly disapointing. It had MANY MANY MANY bugs and didn't achieve what it was supposed too (historical RTS of 1836-1921, it simply felt like EUII bumped up 50 years).


They, like OOTP, was a niche little game group that really supported their games well. Well, they had a buggy release, did not attend too it the way they had before (instead of weeks untill it was perfectly patched, it was 2 months+ before it was playable). They also added a lot of good upgrades to their games over time (extra scenarios, major game changes) , that policy was stopped at some point....

Left a sour taste in my mouth. I may buy more games from them, but, like OOTP now, they money isn't out of my hand on release day.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Kaline

I may buy more games from them, but, like OOTP now, they money isn't out of my hand on release day.

To be quite honest, that's always how you should do it. That's always how I do it. Indeed, many times I'll even wait, because a patch or two is inevitable these days given the complexity of the code in the games.

I learned long, long ago, to almost never buy a game straight away. Always check reviews, online forums for users' reviews and comments, and so forth.

Mind you, I do break this rule on occassion, but it is very rare...

[mking55]

Here’s the dilemma.

You have independent programmers working to develop games that some people want. In the beginning they are doing this on speculation. Will anyone buy it? Who knows?

We, the potential customers, want to encourage this development by more people. After all, the more choice, the better the product becomes (in theory). Do we withhold our money until the game is brilliant, or do we show our support by paying for it out of the box knowing that there may be problems?

I have bought games that I ‘knew’ I wouldn’t play for more than ½ an hour just to support the developer and to try and attract new developers. That was my position. I have since rethought that position and it’s a shame that I have.

I feel that I have been ‘fooled’ by this baseball game. What once showed great promise and had me shelling out my money on day one has failed me. Am I looking for something to complain about? No. I don’t think so. I can understand why people who are new to this game are amazed by it. But for people who have been playing it since OOTP2, I am amazed when they speak so highly of it.

My major complaint is the same one I had with OOTP2. I can win in a solo league the majority of the time. It’s too easy and therefore no fun. I don’t want to have house rules. The computer AI does too many dumb and non-logical things. This is the 5th version I have bought, and where I was willing to grow with it at OOTP2, it is now OOTP6 and the basic problem is still there.

I could list other things that people have been unhappy about that I agree with but they have been mentioned. I see more and more disillusionment with the game. I see an unfinished product (V6) and hear about work being done on the next release (V7) and that annoys me. I understand the need to make money and eat. I also believe in one’s commitment to quality and delivering a bug-free product. And not bug-free after the baseball season, but bug-free today.

What’s my point? I am a little less trusting today than I was a couple of years ago. I will not buy another OOTP baseball game on first release. I will have to be sold hard by it’s excellence. I will think a little harder before I give my money to other developers who had nothing to do with this debacle. (My opinion so let it be).