Active Player HOF Debate: Second Base

holyroller · 06-23-2004, 03:32 AM

Locks

Roberto Alomar - A no-brainer. Great defender in his prime and an excellent all-around offensive player (OBP, power, speed). Has a shot to end up over 3,000 hits and 500 SB and is already over 200 home runs. In already.

Craig Biggio - Will get in, but probably not on the first ballot. Probably overrated defensively, but a truly great offensive player in his prime. .375 career OBP = in.

Possible

Bret Boone - Good fielder and a late blooming hitter who has a very good chance, but not a lock at this point. MVP quality in both 2001 and 2003 and excellent in 2002, mediocre to slightly above average to good the rest of his career. Probably needs a few more good years to get in.

Ray Durham - Never a great player, just a very good player for a while. At 32, he probably still needs five or six seasons more good seasons to get in. Not likely, but has a shot.

Jeff Kent - Should be a lock, but for some reason I doubt that voters will give him a fair shake. His 2000 and 2002 campaigns were particularly outstanding and has been excellent every year since 1998. Will end up with over 300 home runs and 2,000 hits which, as a second baseman, should get him in.

Alfonso Soriano - Highly overrated and still needs many, many more years to be a credible candidate. At the same time, his 2002 and 2003 campaigns were excellent at least in terms of WARP1 and 3 and is only 28.

Jose Vidro - Another long-shot, but has a chance nonetheless. Not a superstar but is 29 years old and if he can continue his production for six or seven more years he could get in.

I also really wanted to include Marcus Giles but I could barely justify including Soriano. Soriano has had two great years, Giles only one. I think he is a great player, just needs more time.

dougaiton · 06-23-2004, 04:30 AM

Alomar and Biggio. I didn't vote for Kent, but I probably should of. Had this poll been held in two years time, I will. Hell, even after this season. I tend to take the Career Ending Injury view of the Hall - if they broke down today, would they get in?

Skipaway · 06-23-2004, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Alomar and Biggio. I didn't vote for Kent, but I probably should of. Had this poll been held in two years time, I will. Hell, even after this season. I tend to take the Career Ending Injury view of the Hall - if they broke down today, would they get in?

I took the Average Rest of the Way view, and still didn't vote for Jeff Kent. He's still going strong this year at age 36 though.

AngelinOF · 06-23-2004, 02:22 PM

Likewise Alomar & Biggio are probably locks.

Jeff Kent will probably get in on the basis of the 6 straight 100+ RBI seasons, I believe he was the first 2B to do this and you know how some of those BBW just love the RBI, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he even made it on the first ballot.

holyroller · 06-23-2004, 05:39 PM

What do people think about Bret Boone's chances?

Kaline · 06-23-2004, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyroller

What do people think about Bret Boone's chance

If he had this year and next year as very good Id say in, but he isn't....

disposableheros · 06-23-2004, 06:13 PM

take several more great years for me to vote him in (which i dont see happening)

so far, really only 1 great year 2001 (juiced?) and 1 good year 2003

holyroller · 06-23-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

take several more great years for me to vote him in (which i dont see happening)

so far, really only 1 great year 2001 (juiced?) and 1 good year 2003

Actually, considering the park context, both 2001 and 2003 were both great seasons. They are dead even in WARP1 and 2001 is only slightly ahead in WARP3. 2002, on the surface, looks mediocre, but considering the park context it was also a very good season. Unfortunately for him, his late peak probably screws him.

disposableheros · 06-23-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyroller

Actually, considering the park context, both 2001 and 2003 were both great seasons. They are dead even in WARP1 and 2001 is only slightly ahead in WARP3. 2002, on the surface, looks mediocre, but considering the park context it was also a very good season. Unfortunately for him, his late peak probably screws him.

late peak read - juiced

alrighty then, even with 3 debateable "very good" seasons, he's not in - considering he's got 12 under his belt and counting

holyroller · 06-23-2004, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

late peak read - juiced

alrighty then, even with 3 debateable "very good" seasons, he's not in - considering he's got 12 under his belt and counting

I agree, he's not in. I don't think the three seasons are debatable though. He put up great numbers for a second baseman in 2001 and 2003 and good numbers in 2002. Put that in the context of the worst hitting environment in all of baseball, and they become superb. 2001 and 2003 were two of the best seasons by a second baseman, ever.

disposableheros · 06-23-2004, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holyroller

I agree, he's not in. I don't think the three seasons are debatable though. He put up great numbers for a juiced second baseman in 2001 and 2003 and good numbers in 2002. Put that in the context of the worst hitting environment in all of baseball, and they become superb. 2001 and 2003 were two of the best seasons by a juiced second baseman, ever.

fixed that for ya

holyroller · 06-23-2004, 07:16 PM

I see, I didn't know that Boone had even been indicted, let alone convicted.

disposableheros · 06-23-2004, 07:35 PM

peer into my brain and you'll see it clear as day

tried, convicted, and hanged (as well as many others, need a list?)

matskralc · 06-23-2004, 11:01 PM

Alomar and Biggio are, indeed, locks. I mulled over Kent for a bit, and decided that he really was just too good (look at those OPS+s! for a second baseman!). I still dislike him, though.

swampdragon · 06-23-2004, 11:52 PM

This one depends on your standards. If you use the Joe Morgan-Jackie Robinson-Eddie Collins standard, your only votes can be Biggio and Alomar. However, Bobby Doerr and Tony Lazzeri are already in at 2B. If they're the standard, I don't see how you can leave out Kent and maybe even Boone.
I decided the current standard is Ryne Sandberg, who should get in in the next few years. Kent's numbers are similar to Sandberg's, but he has had more benefit from the recent offensive explosion. OTOH, Kent's not through yet. It's close.

Hammer755 · 06-24-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampdragon

This one depends on your standards. If you use the Joe Morgan-Jackie Robinson-Eddie Collins standard, your only votes can be Biggio and Alomar. However, Bobby Doerr and Tony Lazzeri are already in at 2B. If they're the standard, I don't see how you can leave out Kent and maybe even Boone.
I decided the current standard is Ryne Sandberg, who should get in in the next few years. Kent's numbers are similar to Sandberg's, but he has had more benefit from the recent offensive explosion. OTOH, Kent's not through yet. It's close.

But you can't look at it according to the Doerr/Lazzeri standard. If you compared every player to the worst player who's in the HOF, then there would be far far too many players get enshrined.

holyroller · 06-24-2004, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer755

But you can't look at it according to the Doerr/Lazzeri standard. If you compared every player to the worst player who's in the HOF, then there would be far far too many players get enshrined.

I think that's why he ended up with the Ryno standard and I think that is fair.

Skipaway · 06-24-2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I decided the current standard is Ryne Sandberg, who should get in in the next few years. Kent's numbers are similar to Sandberg's, but he has had more benefit from the recent offensive explosion. OTOH, Kent's not through yet. It's close.

Kent's numbers are actually better, at least in most rate stats. He did not have all those Gold Gloves though. I think people do put a lot of value in the defense of middle infielders.

holyroller · 06-24-2004, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

I think people do put a lot of value in the defense of middle infielders.

Sorry man, can't resist this sarcasm...

No ****ing ****?

darkhorse · 06-24-2004, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Kent's numbers are actually better, at least in most rate stats. He did not have all those Gold Gloves though. I think people do put a lot of value in the defense of middle infielders.

Even adjusting for era, Kent is a superior hitter. Kent with a career EQA of .292. Sandberg at .282. However, Sandberg is clearly a better glove man and he sustained that excellence for a great deal longer. Kent didn't really get untracked until he was 29.

06-23-2004, 03:32 AM	#1
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Active Player HOF Debate: Second Base Locks Roberto Alomar - A no-brainer. Great defender in his prime and an excellent all-around offensive player (OBP, power, speed). Has a shot to end up over 3,000 hits and 500 SB and is already over 200 home runs. In already. Craig Biggio - Will get in, but probably not on the first ballot. Probably overrated defensively, but a truly great offensive player in his prime. .375 career OBP = in. Possible Bret Boone - Good fielder and a late blooming hitter who has a very good chance, but not a lock at this point. MVP quality in both 2001 and 2003 and excellent in 2002, mediocre to slightly above average to good the rest of his career. Probably needs a few more good years to get in. Ray Durham - Never a great player, just a very good player for a while. At 32, he probably still needs five or six seasons more good seasons to get in. Not likely, but has a shot. Jeff Kent - Should be a lock, but for some reason I doubt that voters will give him a fair shake. His 2000 and 2002 campaigns were particularly outstanding and has been excellent every year since 1998. Will end up with over 300 home runs and 2,000 hits which, as a second baseman, should get him in. Alfonso Soriano - Highly overrated and still needs many, many more years to be a credible candidate. At the same time, his 2002 and 2003 campaigns were excellent at least in terms of WARP1 and 3 and is only 28. Jose Vidro - Another long-shot, but has a chance nonetheless. Not a superstar but is 29 years old and if he can continue his production for six or seven more years he could get in. I also really wanted to include Marcus Giles but I could barely justify including Soriano. Soriano has had two great years, Giles only one. I think he is a great player, just needs more time. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-23-2004, 04:30 AM	#2
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Alomar and Biggio. I didn't vote for Kent, but I probably should of. Had this poll been held in two years time, I will. Hell, even after this season. I tend to take the Career Ending Injury view of the Hall - if they broke down today, would they get in? __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

06-23-2004, 05:39 PM	#5
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	What do people think about Bret Boone's chances? __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

06-23-2004, 06:13 PM	#7
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	take several more great years for me to vote him in (which i dont see happening) so far, really only 1 great year 2001 (juiced?) and 1 good year 2003 __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

06-23-2004, 07:35 PM	#13
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332	peer into my brain and you'll see it clear as day tried, convicted, and hanged (as well as many others, need a list?) __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

View Poll Results: Who gets your vote?
Roberto Alomar	42	79.25%
Craig Biggio	36	67.92%
Bret Boone	10	18.87%
Ray Durham	0	0%
Jeff Kent	25	47.17%
Alfonso Soriano	5	9.43%
Jose Vidro	2	3.77%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

06-23-2004, 02:22 PM	#4
AngelinOF All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,353	Likewise Alomar & Biggio are probably locks. Jeff Kent will probably get in on the basis of the 6 straight 100+ RBI seasons, I believe he was the first 2B to do this and you know how some of those BBW just love the RBI, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he even made it on the first ballot.

06-23-2004, 07:16 PM	#12
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	I see, I didn't know that Boone had even been indicted, let alone convicted.

06-23-2004, 11:01 PM	#14
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	Alomar and Biggio are, indeed, locks. I mulled over Kent for a bit, and decided that he really was just too good (look at those OPS+s! for a second baseman!). I still dislike him, though. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

06-23-2004, 11:52 PM	#15
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	This one depends on your standards. If you use the Joe Morgan-Jackie Robinson-Eddie Collins standard, your only votes can be Biggio and Alomar. However, Bobby Doerr and Tony Lazzeri are already in at 2B. If they're the standard, I don't see how you can leave out Kent and maybe even Boone. I decided the current standard is Ryne Sandberg, who should get in in the next few years. Kent's numbers are similar to Sandberg's, but he has had more benefit from the recent offensive explosion. OTOH, Kent's not through yet. It's close.