Pete Rose sycophants

[monkeyman576]

MLB finally did the right thing. Rose and Jackson were no saints, but their punishment far outweighed the crime.

[daves]

When did shoeless pass away? Should his ban ended sooner?


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[monkeyman576]

1951 and yes.

[Brad K]

The personal failings don't mean they weren't great players. How about we let every true star into the Hall but include comments about his personal failings in his Hall biography.

As examples

"At one time Rose was under a permanent ban from baseball. After initially denying it, he admitted to gambling on baseball games. Rose entered a plea of guilty when charged with tax evasion. He avoided being charged but paid a settlement to a woman who claimed she had a relationship with him when she was under the age of consent and he was in his 30s."

and...

"There are allegations Bonds used steroids to increase his performance. It was never proven however changes in his appearance lend support to the allegation. How much, if any, performance advantage he gained if he used steroids cannot be determined as opposing pitchers are known to have used steroids. Bonds was having a Hall of Fame career prior to the alleged steroid use."

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Brad K

The personal failings don't mean they weren't great players. How about we let every true star into the Hall but include comments about his personal failings in his Hall biography.

As examples

"At one time Rose was under a permanent ban from baseball. After initially denying it, he admitted to gambling on baseball games. Rose entered a plea of guilty when charged with tax evasion. He avoided being charged but paid a settlement to a woman who claimed she had a relationship with him when she was under the age of consent and he was in his 30s."

and...

"There are allegations Bonds used steroids to increase his performance. It was never proven however changes in his appearance lend support to the allegation. How much, if any, performance advantage he gained if he used steroids cannot be determined as opposing pitchers are known to have used steroids. Bonds was having a Hall of Fame career prior to the alleged steroid use."

I was one of those that trashed Bonds for PED usage.

I then read a sophisticated analysis of what PED's likely did to his stats.

About 100 homers, and TONS of extra walks. That's about it. His homer count would have been quite close to his Godfather's, and he would certainly be in the HoF now.

Same with McGwire. He took andro-creatine, which was legal, and available in nutrition shops, AND was openly displayed in his locker at the stadium.

Yep..it was the pre-cursor to steroids, but it was LEGAL. Never could figure out all the heat he got for it. IT WAS LEGAL.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

MLB finally did the right thing. Rose and Jackson were no saints, but their punishment far outweighed the crime.

Given that they were on the permanently ineligible list, it seems to me the punishment fit the crime exactly. But now that Manfred has issued his executive order that "permanently" does not really mean permanently, the punishment is now far less than the crime.

Do you feel the same way about Chick Gandel and Eddie Cicotte, the two scumbags that sought out gamblers to take up their propostion to throw the 1919 World Series?

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I was one of those that trashed Bonds for PED usage.

I then read a sophisticated analysis of what PED's likely did to his stats.

About 100 homers, and TONS of extra walks. That's about it. His homer count would have been quite close to his Godfather's, and he would certainly be in the HoF now.

Same with McGwire. He took andro-creatine, which was legal, and available in nutrition shops, AND was openly displayed in his locker at the stadium.

Yep..it was the pre-cursor to steroids, but it was LEGAL. Never could figure out all the heat he got for it. IT WAS LEGAL.

I would like to read that analysis that concluded steroids added 100 home runs to Bonds' record, because I am dubious about that one.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I was one of those that trashed Bonds for PED usage.

I then read a sophisticated analysis of what PED's likely did to his stats.

About 100 homers, and TONS of extra walks. That's about it. His homer count would have been quite close to his Godfather's, and he would certainly be in the HoF now.

Same with McGwire. He took andro-creatine, which was legal, and available in nutrition shops, AND was openly displayed in his locker at the stadium.

Yep..it was the pre-cursor to steroids, but it was LEGAL. Never could figure out all the heat he got for it. IT WAS LEGAL.

As I always seem to need to note, "Andro" and similar substances were banned by MLB in June, 1991, IIRC. (One time I even linked to Fay Vincent's directive on this.)

The fact that you could "buy it at GNC" is utterly irrelevant. McGwire had seven years' notice that this constituted cheating. And he still chose to do it.

(You can get a prescription for steroids, too. Doesn't mean players are allowed to take them, though.)

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Given that they were on the permanently ineligible list, it seems to me the punishment fit the crime exactly. But now that Manfred has issued his executive order that "permanently" does not really mean permanently, the punishment is now far less than the crime.

Do you feel the same way about Chick Gandel and Eddie Cicotte, the two scumbags that sought out gamblers to take up their propostion to throw the 1919 World Series?

He took Jackson off the list 74 years after his death. Maybe Rose should have had to wait 74 years too.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I would like to read that analysis that concluded steroids added 100 home runs to Bonds' record, because I am dubious about that one.

I'd like to see the evidence he hit balls farther. That's the key to whether steroids helped him.

[Leo_The_Lip]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I'd like to see the evidence he hit balls farther. That's the key to whether steroids helped him.

This is NOT true.
Sterids were't the key to power. It was recovery time.

As Castey use to say, "you could look if up."

[Brad K]

You mean fewer missed games?

A guy is stronger but doesn't hit the ball farther?

Yet runners on steroids run faster and weight lifters lift more.

[Déjà Bru]

Hmm, I feel like I am whistling past the graveyard. For one thing, this topic and thread have been a lightning rod for controversy and I fear stirring more up. But the record must be updated with the story below.

For another thing, I am posting immediately after Brad K who has made many contributions in these forums over nine years. He was banned sometime in the past 10 days, surely not for anything that appears here which is at least three months old.

[I am NOT asking for any information about that. It's none of my business.]

Anyway, with trembling fingertips do I post the following:

FBI files on Pete Rose reveal MLB hits king once owed bookie $90,000 in gambling losses



The FBI, huh. Wow.

Not just as a result of this latest revelation, but in general, I still believe Rose should not have been reinstated at all. There, I said it.

[Runs away quickly.]

[monkeyman576]

Manfred didn't want to be seen as the next Giamatti is the bottom line.

[mytreds]

It’s amazing how much mileage some people can get out of a dead horse.

[monkeyman576]

Dead horses are underrated.

[Westheim]

Some dead horses get taxidermied and put in a museum, with a plaque, for people to marvel at.

Sounds a bit like Cooperstown!

[Déjà Bru]

[Drops the timid persona.]

It's not a twiggin' dead horse when it comes to defiling a sport that I love. Especially since now the man will ultimately be honored with a place in the Hall of Fame, his only ameliorating excuse being that he died. So call it a dead horse if you want; I will continue to "beat" on it despite troll-like comments from the peanut gallery.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

. . . troll-like comments from the peanut gallery.

Such as this:

Originally Posted by mytreds

Is this a Talk Sports thread or is it Deja Bru’s diary?

It has not risen to the level of abuse — yet — so I don't want to bother the moderators with a complaint, but what irks me is that I am thinking of reinstating my Ignore List. I had wanted to avoid using it anymore.

So what's it going to be, mytreds? Will you be the single entry on my Ignore List now?

Rhetorical questions, I assure you, because I am sure that you could care less one way or another. Continue acting like a troll, and you won't even know anyway.

[Westheim]

Stop fearing the dead.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

It's not a twiggin' dead horse when it comes to defiling a sport that I love.

The living have done more damage to this sport in the last five to seven years than Pete Rose's couple of bets ever could.

- the post-ASG taterballs of 2018(?)
- the universal DH
- one-player rules (no matter how much I adore Shohei-sama)
- extra-inning bonzoball
- schedule erosion
- TV balkanization
- literally betting everywhere
- upcoming: automatic ball/strikes
- upcoming: divisions be gone / realignment

Don't get me wrong. He absolutely should have stayed banned in perpetuity. But Rose - inevitably, eventually! - getting into the Hall of Fame isn't even a scratch on that dead horse.