Chess Cheating

[dsvitak]

I have been getting back into chess, a lot.

I have also been following the kerfluffle with Magnus Carlsen and Hans Nieman.

At this year's Sinquefield Cup, held here in the St. Louis area, Carlsen got his ass beat by Hans Nieman..an erratic, 19-year old Grandmaster.

Clearly, Hans is an excellent player, or he wouldn't be in the tournament.

After a very careful review of the game in question, it appeared that Carlsen played poorly..well under his "rating."

The FIDE chess ratings are exceptionally sophisticated....and so are the latest chess "engines."

These engines (AI) are SO good, that they are used to train humans, but are also vulnerable to be exploited by humans to determine the best moves.

Each move is rated..and a perfect, always-make-the-perfect-move scores a 100.

Realistically, if a human scores above a ninety, he's a damned fine player.

Hans scored a 97, on this, and on a couple of other games. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Dunno.

Carlsen has accused Hans Nieman of cheating in their match. He has no proof, other than Hans played an excellent game.

Let's add to the drama...Hans has ADMITTED to cheating on at least two occasions..once as a 12-year old, and once as a 16-year old.

Chess.com has recently suspended Hans Nieman..with no specific reason given, other than to say Hans has not been upfront about his past. Reading between the knights, chess.com has likely statistical evidence - empirical - that indicates more of a pattern cheating than Hans has admitted to.

Either way, it's hella fun in the chess world now.

I played an enormous amount of chess back in the day..been playing, off and on, since the mid '60's. I held a rating for many years. My current rating is somewhere between "you suck" and "wood pusher"...but it is going up reasonably quickly, as I get my mojo back.

[low]

I was briefly in the USCF back in the 90s. I once took first in an unrated tournament held in my state. For some reason, I never stuck with it. I haven't played in years.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by low

I was briefly in the USCF back in the 90s. I once took first in an unrated tournament held in my state. For some reason, I never stuck with it. I haven't played in years.

My dad taught me how to play..and he was a decent player. After that, I read many, MANY books. Still have a very large number. This was years before the internets. My favorite book of all time is "Best 1,000 short games of Chess." It uses the old chess notation, of course.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Carlsen has accused Hans Nieman of cheating in their match. He has no proof, other than Hans played an excellent game.

This is what I have read, is the problem. Without proof, Carlsen's accusations are tantamount to slander. This may have several unanticipated results: a lawsuit for damages, the chess community rallying around Nieman and against Carlsen, and FIDE feeling obligated to penalize Carlsen.

The international governing body of chess, known as FIDE, recently reminded players of a number of rules regarding cheating allegations, including penalties for players who make “manifestly unfounded complaints.” The rules are meant to deter players from accusing others without concrete evidence.

Unless one can point conclusively to a smoking gun, one is better off not going down this path.

[Amazin69]

[deleted-accidental post. Full post below.]

[Amazin69]

I play at Chess.com almost every day and the best I've ever gotten is a 92.

Granted, I'm no Grandmaster (or International Master, or just plain Master, or even an Expert; Class A was my limit), but 97 would seem almost impossible, given how the score will ding you for not making moves they think you should be making even though I'm just holding back for later. If Hans is cranking those out on the regular, it does seem worth an eyebrow raise.

And hey, I did once have the privilege of getting my ass thoroughly kicked by Joel Benjamin, way back in the day. (Seriously, it wasn't even close. He just ground me up like a coffee bean.)

[koohead]

This may be a dumb question but how does one cheat at Chess?? I mean, hypothetically speaking, what COULD have he done that would result in such a high score??

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by koohead

This may be a dumb question but how does one cheat at Chess?? I mean, hypothetically speaking, what COULD have he done that would result in such a high score??

Off the top of my head, if you play over the internet you can always have a second PC with a chess engine up on that, reproduce the move your opponent made, and then make the move the second PC suggests for you to make.

And that is just the first stupid thought I had here, there's probably more bang for the buck to be had.

On chess itself, I played a bit many years ago, but very badly. Worse than I play OOTP, and that says something.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

This is what I have read, is the problem. Without proof, Carlsen's accusations are tantamount to slander. This may have several unanticipated results: a lawsuit for damages, the chess community rallying around Nieman and against Carlsen, and FIDE feeling obligated to penalize Carlsen.
Unless one can point conclusively to a smoking gun, one is better off not going down this path.

The kid has a history of cheating (and many in the chess world believe "once a cheater, always a cheater") and he plays like an AI would when most do not. I don't blame Carlsen one bit. I wouldn't play the kid either. If Carlsen wins, it doesn't benefit him much. But if he loses, then he looks bad and it makes a known cheater look better.

You may say, but he cheated when he was only a kid, we all do stupid things as kids, he deserves a second chance. One, he already was given a second chance and cheated again. But two, this is chess. No one is owed a second chance. If you didn't know better and cheated as a child, then too bad, do something else with your life.

Frankly, I think it's disgusting that these tournaments are even allowing this kid to play. I hope more top players say, "if you're allowing this kid in, then I'm out".

[koohead]

*nevermind

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by koohead

This may be a dumb question but how does one cheat at Chess?? I mean, hypothetically speaking, what COULD have he done that would result in such a high score??

Appropriately, Chess.com provides an interesting essay on the topic. It includes instances of head-to-head cheating.

https://www.chess.com/blog/SamCopela...cheat-at-chess

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Appropriately, Chess.com provides an interesting essay on the topic. It includes instances of head-to-head cheating.

https://www.chess.com/blog/SamCopela...cheat-at-chess

But the author does include this cogent point:

Although there is no doubt that cheating does occur, and that it is an important issue, I think the incidence of cheating is greatly exaggerated. When one considers how many millions of chess games have been played, the number of proven and even accused cases of cheating is marginal. In fact, I would argue that there is a greater danger to chess in the perception of cheating than in the actual act. I know multiple players who have irrationally avoided playing competitive chess because they fear playing cheaters. Personally, in hundreds of tournament games, I have never once felt the least suspicicion that my opponent was cheating.

[kq76]

The game was "over-the-board", which is the chess term for in person. However, it's still quite possible to cheat in person. For example, you can have a simple device that buzzes you to do a certain move and yeah, the code might be complicated to memorize, but it's not impossible. Or you could have someone in the audience somehow relaying you signals. Hans did say he'd play naked if people wanted, but of course he knows no serious organizer would say, "okay, sure, let's do that".

What's sad about all this is some people might think, all this talk is only good for the game, but I really don't think it is. What if some young prodigy comes to the realization that it's all pointless because you just can't be sure the other person isn't cheating and then they quit chess, what have we lost? No, there needs to be a hard line on this. You cheat and you're out forever. I imagine this is how Kenesaw Mountain Landis saw the whole 1919 scandal.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by kq76

For example, you can have a simple device that buzzes you to do a certain move and yeah, the code might be complicated to memorize, but it's not impossible.

64 (the number of squares on a chessboard) is only 2 to the 6th power. You could give two buzzers (one per hand or leg or wherever) and signal the target square quite easily: 100101 =37, which indicates e5. (If multiple pieces could move there, the transmitter could indicate the square on which the desired piece sits before moving.)

[dsvitak]

I supported Hans Nieman in this from the start.

Then...more and more has come out.

Let's put it in baseball terms. Gamescore. Easy, right? In chess, 100 is perfect, and the highest possible score.

There are a distressing number of games where Nieman scored exactly 100. Given the billions of possible moves, and the complexity of the game, the chances of throwing a perfect game (see what I did there?) are very, very, vanishingly low.

And yet, he has done this multiple times.

Playing a perfect chess game would be in baseball, pitching a perfect game, with 27 strikeouts, no balls, and not one foul ball. Just 81 called strikes, or swing and misses.

These games are out there, online, and being reviewed. I am beginning to turn against Nieman. Look up gothamchess, or Hikaru on YT.

Either way, this hasn't hurt the game..LOTS of interest now.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I have been getting back into chess, a lot.

I have also been following the kerfluffle with Magnus Carlsen and Hans Nieman.

At this year's Sinquefield Cup, held here in the St. Louis area, Carlsen got his ass beat by Hans Nieman..an erratic, 19-year old Grandmaster.

Clearly, Hans is an excellent player, or he wouldn't be in the tournament.

After a very careful review of the game in question, it appeared that Carlsen played poorly..well under his "rating."

The FIDE chess ratings are exceptionally sophisticated....and so are the latest chess "engines."

These engines (AI) are SO good, that they are used to train humans, but are also vulnerable to be exploited by humans to determine the best moves.

Each move is rated..and a perfect, always-make-the-perfect-move scores a 100.

Realistically, if a human scores above a ninety, he's a damned fine player.

Hans scored a 97, on this, and on a couple of other games. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Dunno.

Carlsen has accused Hans Nieman of cheating in their match. He has no proof, other than Hans played an excellent game.

Let's add to the drama...Hans has ADMITTED to cheating on at least two occasions..once as a 12-year old, and once as a 16-year old.

Chess.com has recently suspended Hans Nieman..with no specific reason given, other than to say Hans has not been upfront about his past. Reading between the knights, chess.com has likely statistical evidence - empirical - that indicates more of a pattern cheating than Hans has admitted to.

Either way, it's hella fun in the chess world now.

I played an enormous amount of chess back in the day..been playing, off and on, since the mid '60's. I held a rating for many years. My current rating is somewhere between "you suck" and "wood pusher"...but it is going up reasonably quickly, as I get my mojo back.

I'm on chess.com too. Can you tell me how someone can cheat in chess? Are they using a computer on the side and then making that move? How pathetic. Why would you do that? What good can come of that?

BTW, what's your ranking? I'm anywhere between 1100-1200 but I play a lot of buzzed chess. So I lose some games I probably shouldn't. So I'm probably a solid 1200.

[Amazin69]

I've spent most of my life mucking about in the 1800s/1900s, just good enough to know that I'm not nearly good enough. Last night's debacle (discovered attacks don't work so well when the fork you employ involves moving a pawn onto that same diagonal, and forks aren't great when one piece can swap off before you can grab the other) dropped me to 1843, IIRC.

Meh.

[koohead]

ra-roh. https://www.wsj.com/articles/chess-c...hare_permalink

[Amazin69]

I like Heather Hudak's comment, where she notes that he could have avoided getting caught by simply using a second computer (and presumably a VPN to hide his physical location) rather than toggling between screens, which Chess.com can detect.

"Lazy cheaters are the worst." To be fair, "cheating" and "work ethic" are rather antithetical concepts, I should think.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I'm on chess.com too. Can you tell me how someone can cheat in chess? Are they using a computer on the side and then making that move? How pathetic. Why would you do that? What good can come of that?

BTW, what's your ranking? I'm anywhere between 1100-1200 but I play a lot of buzzed chess. So I lose some games I probably shouldn't. So I'm probably a solid 1200.

1200 is a pretty solid ranking.

I am struggling with the interface on Chess.com. I ended up playing a couple of games where I lost after four moves. Some sort of weird timing mechanism.

I played the AI four times...against progressively tougher ratings, and won all four. I am hesitant at this point to claim any rating, or skill. It will take a minute..as my game currently has more rust than steel.